Keris Bali

henri · 19th January 2011, 10:01 AM

Hello,

I did clean this blade this morning I recently bought during a travel in Bali, but i need some help with the dapur and the origin .

In my opinion from Bali in regards of the hilt but with an unusual ganja
and probably has some age but difficult to estimate how old . Different opinions are welcome !

Henri

David · 19th January 2011, 11:31 AM

Hi Henri. Welcome to the forum. I moved this keris to the proper forum for you.

asomotif · 19th January 2011, 12:50 PM

Welcome Henri,

Nice blade. nice hilt.
My knowledge of keris is near to the "keris for dummys" level. But could it be that the Ganja is of later date. It has different corrosion (besides the flamboyant form)

Best regards,
Willem

Marcokeris · 19th January 2011, 02:40 PM

Very nice
Is possible to see sarong?

David · 19th January 2011, 06:31 PM

This type of gonjo on Bali keris is uncommon, but not unique. You can see a similar one in van Duuren's The Kris on page 73.
I do have suspicions of yours being not very old Henri. There is something that just doesn't sit right with me in terms of the carving, overall dhapur and the erosion of the blade. But photos can be misleading and i could be way off on this.
The hilt looks lovely and i would love to see it cleaned up a little...

Sajen · 19th January 2011, 07:41 PM

Hi Henri,

welcome to the forum. Your keris is indeed a Bali keris. The hilt of your keris is very nice and of good craftsman skill but my feeling is that it isn't very old.
Like David mentioned already is it difficult to give a 100% sure statement by pictures but from the pictures you posted I have my doubts about the blade. I think that the naga is a later addition to an older blade same as the gonjo. I may be wrong by this but it is very common to see modified keris blades in the last years.

Regards,

Detlef

drdavid · 19th January 2011, 09:52 PM

Hi Henri
as the others have said, welcome.
I also think this is a blade of modest age and has been recently "adjusted" to suit a more flamboyant taste. The gonjo does not look to have the same age as the blade based on corrosion, the carving of the naga looks a bit strange as does the sogokan. The hilt is nice, typical Bali
drdavid

Henk · 19th January 2011, 10:13 PM

Henri,

Welcome to the forum.

I would like to see the scabbard or sarong. Lovely ukiran.
For the blade i'm afraid Sajen and drdavid are right. The naga is a later addition and so is the gonjo. I'm afraid the keris is modified to pleasure those who travel for pleasure.

If the sarong is as nice as the ukiran, you got your self a nice pimped Balinese or Lombok keris.

henri · 19th January 2011, 10:41 PM

Thank you all to welcome me and for your help and input . First post to this forum ..... and really not disappointed !

Bought this keris 17 luks last week with a balato . A little bit less fancy than the previous one but a nice dapur and a typical bali hilt . The warangka seems to be original but new gandar . All comments are welcome !

Henri

David · 20th January 2011, 05:04 AM

I like this one Henri. Normally i would recommend that you start a new thread to discuss a completely different keris unless you think there is some connection. Since we have these two together i would have to say that this second keris has much more original and old integrity than your first offerring. The 17 luks make it a bit unusual too. Simple, but sweet.

Sajen · 20th January 2011, 09:51 PM

Agree complete with David, this keris seems to be in all parts original.

How fit the blade inside the sheath?

Regards,

Detlef

Henk · 20th January 2011, 10:15 PM

Great keris the second one. A beauty by its honest simplicity. Congrats on that one.
In this case less is certainly more.

henri · 21st January 2011, 01:37 AM

Thank you David , Sajen and Henk .

Sajen , the blade fit perfectly . The warangka has a nice polished finish but new gandar . Nobody is perfect !

GIO · 25th January 2011, 07:58 PM

The first keris reminds me one reproduced in Ghiringhelli's first book (page41).
The particular curls, however, match a practically straight blade, though somewhat bent on one side. Since, according to the Authors, dapur and ganja seem to be inter connected, this type of ganja should only match with a straight blade, and not with luks as it is the case.

VANDOO · 28th January 2011, 12:51 AM

HERE ARE PICTURES OF A BALI KERIS SIMULAR TO THE ONE IN THE FIRST PICTURES. IT IS MODERN AND DONE IN THE TYPICAL BALI STYLE. IT IS CERTIANLY ART BUT IS IT A KERIS?
IT HAS EXCELLENT WOOD CARVING AND METAL WORK AND SET WITH LOW QUALITY GEM STONES AND IS A BEAUTIFUL HIGH END ITEM. IF LOCAL PEOPLE IN BALI BUY THEM FOR A FAMILY KERIS THEN ITS A KERIS. IF ONLY TOURISTS BUY THEM FOR SOUVINEERS BECAUSE THEY ARE PRETTY THEN THEY ARE ART IN THE FORM OF A KERIS. AT LEAST THATS MY VIEW ON IT.

I DO LIKE THIS TYPE OF ITEM AS THE WORKMANSHIP IS IMPRESSIVE AND A COLLECTION OF THIS SORT OF HIGH END KERIS WOULD BE BEAUTIFUL (BUT EXPENSIVE

)
I JUST FEEL THESE KERIS ARE NOT A PART OF TODAYS KERIS SOCIETY. UNLESS THEY ARE SOMETIMES USED TODAY FOR TAILSMAN, STATUS ,TEMPLE OFFERINGS OR CEREMONY??

David · 28th January 2011, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

IT IS MODERN AND DONE IN THE TYPICAL BALI STYLE. IT IS CERTIANLY ART BUT IS IT A KERIS?
IT HAS EXCELLENT WOOD CARVING AND METAL WORK AND SET WITH LOW QUALITY GEM STONES AND IS A BEAUTIFUL HIGH END ITEM. IF LOCAL PEOPLE IN BALI BUY THEM FOR A FAMILY KERIS THEN ITS A KERIS. IF ONLY TOURISTS BUY THEM FOR SOUVINEERS BECAUSE THEY ARE PRETTY THEN THEY ARE ART IN THE FORM OF A KERIS. AT LEAST THATS MY VIEW ON IT.

Barry, you are leaving out an entire community of keris collectors both in Indonesia and abroad who consider these to be BOTH works of art AND keris. Higher end keris like this one are not really produced for the common tourist market as the common tourist is not willing to pay the price of it for a remembrance of their trip to Bali.
Less and less Indonesians are buying new keris for cultural reasons, but their are many collectors in Bali who support the making of the contemporary keris. My own criteria for whether it is a keris or not is whether it holds true to the tradition manufacture of keris and whether it is of a design which has been traditional accepted as a keris. This particular dhapur which you show, though rare, certainly has as older examples of it can be found.

A. G. Maisey · 28th January 2011, 03:27 AM

Barry, I can assure you that this is most definitely a keris.

It is also a work of art.

In times past this particular blade form was the prerogative of a priest.

The kajongan warangka is a form that in times past was favoured by young men, but today the old time restrictions no longer apply.

The dress on the keris shown is obviously recent, but it is very good quality dress, and as David has remarked, it is a very, very long way from what a tourist might purchase, even if he were fortunate enough to be offered something of this quality. We are not looking at little money here.

There are currently a number of pande keris and empus working in Bali, and most of their production is for the local market. In Bali the keris is required in a number of ceremonies, from memory, I think it is nine, and every adult Balinese man needs a keris to be a member of his community. There are only so many old keris, and the vast bulk of new Balinese buyers choose to buy a new keris rather than an old one, in any case.

There is a rather distorted perception that new and recent keris are produced for tourists, or collectors, both local and international.

This is absolutely incorrect.

In Balinese and Javanese society the keris is still a requisite item of dress.

There were only ever a limited number of old keris.

Each new person who needs a keris basically has the choice between a very low quality older keris, or a quite good quality recent keris, both of which will sell for about the same amount of money.There is no prize for guessing what most people buy.

Then we have the Indonesian art collectors, and this group includes a large number of people who are very orientated to the keris, as many people regard the keris (blade only) as the highest expression of the Javanese plastic arts.

In simple terms, you do not even get to see the best in modern keris art unless you are very well connected, and to actually be in a position to buy it is something that can take years of effort.

Mention has been made in another thread of the Neka Art Museum and Keris Collection at Ubud in Bali. The owner, Pak Suteja Neka, is a member of the Pande Caste and he sees his mission as to promote and preserve the Balinese keris. More than 90% of his collection is representative of the very best in modern keris art.

The sort of keris that tourists and inexperienced collectors buy are nearly always of very, very low quality, but in recent years, even these keris are able to be regarded as true keris, it is just a matter of them being at the bottom of the market.

I used to see keris that we could definitely categorise as "Tourist Keris", but I have not seen these in either Bali or Jawa for many years. Typically the Balinese ones had highly carved black wood dress, often of good quality, and the blade was a piece of sheet iron with the pamor pattern etched onto it. The Javanese ones were mostly old dress with a piece of sheet iron, or a worthless old blade, holding it together.

New and recent keris at the present time can definitely be considered as "real keris", but the quality is related to what the buyer is prepared to pay.

David · 28th January 2011, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Less and less Indonesians are buying new keris for cultural reasons, but their are many collectors in Bali who support the making of the contemporary keris.

Thank you Alan, i stand corrected.

VANDOO · 28th January 2011, 07:15 AM

I GUESS I SHOT MYSELF IN THE FOOT ON THAT ONE

THINKING A LITTLE FURTHER ALONG THOSE LINES MY KERIS WOULD CEASE TO BE A KERIS BECAUSE I AM NOT FROM THE KERIS CULTURE AND DON'T USE IT FOR TRADITION OR CEREMONY AND JUST LIKE TO HANDLE AND LOOK AT THEM.

OF COURSE THATS NONSENCE A KERIS IS A KERIS TOP GRADE OR COMMON GRADE.

THE TOP QUALITY KERIS ARE WORKS OF ART BUT STILL KERIS AND JUST SHOW OFF A HIGHER LEVEL OF CRAFTSMANSHIP AND MATERIALS. THEY SELL TO A HIGHER CLIENTEL WHO APPRECIATE THAT HIGH LEVEL OF WORKMANSHIP AND MATERIALS. THAT TOO IS TRADITIONAL AS SUCH THINGS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN MADE FOR ROYALTY AND THE WEALTHY. PERHAPS THE STATUS OF A KERIS IS DIFFERENT TO SOME COLLECTORS TODAY THAN IN THE PAST BUT SOME TRADITIONS STILL APPLY. I WAS PRIVELEDGED TO HANDLE QUITE A FEW OF THE HIGH QUALITY KERIS WHEN IN BALI A FEW YEARS AGO.
I APPRECIATE THE MATERIALS,WORKMANSHIP AND HISTORY OF KERIS. I FIND THEM BEAUTIFUL AS LIKE SNOWFLAKES NO TWO ARE ALIKE. THE PLEASING SHAPES OF BLADE SCABBARD AND HANDLE. THE BEAUTIFUL WOOD GRAINS COMPETE WITH THE PARMOR IN THE BLADES AND THE CARVEING AND FITTINGS ARE THE ICING ON THE CAKE.

TO HAVE A COLLECTION OF EVERY VARIATION OF KERIS ONE WOULD HAVE TO OWN EVERY LAST ONE.

19th January 2011, 10:01 AM	#1
henri Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 81	Keris Bali Hello, I did clean this blade this morning I recently bought during a travel in Bali, but i need some help with the dapur and the origin . In my opinion from Bali in regards of the hilt but with an unusual ganja and probably has some age but difficult to estimate how old . Different opinions are welcome ! Henri Attached Images

19th January 2011, 10:41 PM	#9
henri Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 81	Thank you all to welcome me and for your help and input . First post to this forum ..... and really not disappointed ! Bought this keris 17 luks last week with a balato . A little bit less fancy than the previous one but a nice dapur and a typical bali hilt . The warangka seems to be original but new gandar . All comments are welcome ! Henri Attached Images

28th January 2011, 12:51 AM	#15
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	HERE ARE PICTURES OF A BALI KERIS SIMULAR TO THE ONE IN THE FIRST PICTURES. IT IS MODERN AND DONE IN THE TYPICAL BALI STYLE. IT IS CERTIANLY ART BUT IS IT A KERIS? IT HAS EXCELLENT WOOD CARVING AND METAL WORK AND SET WITH LOW QUALITY GEM STONES AND IS A BEAUTIFUL HIGH END ITEM. IF LOCAL PEOPLE IN BALI BUY THEM FOR A FAMILY KERIS THEN ITS A KERIS. IF ONLY TOURISTS BUY THEM FOR SOUVINEERS BECAUSE THEY ARE PRETTY THEN THEY ARE ART IN THE FORM OF A KERIS. AT LEAST THATS MY VIEW ON IT. I DO LIKE THIS TYPE OF ITEM AS THE WORKMANSHIP IS IMPRESSIVE AND A COLLECTION OF THIS SORT OF HIGH END KERIS WOULD BE BEAUTIFUL (BUT EXPENSIVE ) I JUST FEEL THESE KERIS ARE NOT A PART OF TODAYS KERIS SOCIETY. UNLESS THEY ARE SOMETIMES USED TODAY FOR TAILSMAN, STATUS ,TEMPLE OFFERINGS OR CEREMONY?? Attached Images

19th January 2011, 11:31 AM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Hi Henri. Welcome to the forum. I moved this keris to the proper forum for you.

19th January 2011, 12:50 PM	#3
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	Welcome Henri, Nice blade. nice hilt. My knowledge of keris is near to the "keris for dummys" level. But could it be that the Ganja is of later date. It has different corrosion (besides the flamboyant form) Best regards, Willem

19th January 2011, 02:40 PM	#4
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	Very nice Is possible to see sarong?

19th January 2011, 06:31 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	This type of gonjo on Bali keris is uncommon, but not unique. You can see a similar one in van Duuren's The Kris on page 73. I do have suspicions of yours being not very old Henri. There is something that just doesn't sit right with me in terms of the carving, overall dhapur and the erosion of the blade. But photos can be misleading and i could be way off on this. The hilt looks lovely and i would love to see it cleaned up a little...

19th January 2011, 07:41 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Hi Henri, welcome to the forum. Your keris is indeed a Bali keris. The hilt of your keris is very nice and of good craftsman skill but my feeling is that it isn't very old. Like David mentioned already is it difficult to give a 100% sure statement by pictures but from the pictures you posted I have my doubts about the blade. I think that the naga is a later addition to an older blade same as the gonjo. I may be wrong by this but it is very common to see modified keris blades in the last years. Regards, Detlef

19th January 2011, 09:52 PM	#7
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 371	Hi Henri as the others have said, welcome. I also think this is a blade of modest age and has been recently "adjusted" to suit a more flamboyant taste. The gonjo does not look to have the same age as the blade based on corrosion, the carving of the naga looks a bit strange as does the sogokan. The hilt is nice, typical Bali drdavid

19th January 2011, 10:13 PM	#8
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Henri, Welcome to the forum. I would like to see the scabbard or sarong. Lovely ukiran. For the blade i'm afraid Sajen and drdavid are right. The naga is a later addition and so is the gonjo. I'm afraid the keris is modified to pleasure those who travel for pleasure. If the sarong is as nice as the ukiran, you got your self a nice pimped Balinese or Lombok keris.

20th January 2011, 05:04 AM	#10
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	I like this one Henri. Normally i would recommend that you start a new thread to discuss a completely different keris unless you think there is some connection. Since we have these two together i would have to say that this second keris has much more original and old integrity than your first offerring. The 17 luks make it a bit unusual too. Simple, but sweet.

20th January 2011, 09:51 PM	#11
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,779	Agree complete with David, this keris seems to be in all parts original. How fit the blade inside the sheath? Regards, Detlef

20th January 2011, 10:15 PM	#12
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Great keris the second one. A beauty by its honest simplicity. Congrats on that one. In this case less is certainly more.

21st January 2011, 01:37 AM	#13
henri Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 81	Thank you David , Sajen and Henk . Sajen , the blade fit perfectly . The warangka has a nice polished finish but new gandar . Nobody is perfect !

25th January 2011, 07:58 PM	#14
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	The first keris reminds me one reproduced in Ghiringhelli's first book (page41). The particular curls, however, match a practically straight blade, though somewhat bent on one side. Since, according to the Authors, dapur and ganja seem to be inter connected, this type of ganja should only match with a straight blade, and not with luks as it is the case.

28th January 2011, 03:27 AM	#17
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Barry, I can assure you that this is most definitely a keris. It is also a work of art. In times past this particular blade form was the prerogative of a priest. The kajongan warangka is a form that in times past was favoured by young men, but today the old time restrictions no longer apply. The dress on the keris shown is obviously recent, but it is very good quality dress, and as David has remarked, it is a very, very long way from what a tourist might purchase, even if he were fortunate enough to be offered something of this quality. We are not looking at little money here. There are currently a number of pande keris and empus working in Bali, and most of their production is for the local market. In Bali the keris is required in a number of ceremonies, from memory, I think it is nine, and every adult Balinese man needs a keris to be a member of his community. There are only so many old keris, and the vast bulk of new Balinese buyers choose to buy a new keris rather than an old one, in any case. There is a rather distorted perception that new and recent keris are produced for tourists, or collectors, both local and international. This is absolutely incorrect. In Balinese and Javanese society the keris is still a requisite item of dress. There were only ever a limited number of old keris. Each new person who needs a keris basically has the choice between a very low quality older keris, or a quite good quality recent keris, both of which will sell for about the same amount of money.There is no prize for guessing what most people buy. Then we have the Indonesian art collectors, and this group includes a large number of people who are very orientated to the keris, as many people regard the keris (blade only) as the highest expression of the Javanese plastic arts. In simple terms, you do not even get to see the best in modern keris art unless you are very well connected, and to actually be in a position to buy it is something that can take years of effort. Mention has been made in another thread of the Neka Art Museum and Keris Collection at Ubud in Bali. The owner, Pak Suteja Neka, is a member of the Pande Caste and he sees his mission as to promote and preserve the Balinese keris. More than 90% of his collection is representative of the very best in modern keris art. The sort of keris that tourists and inexperienced collectors buy are nearly always of very, very low quality, but in recent years, even these keris are able to be regarded as true keris, it is just a matter of them being at the bottom of the market. I used to see keris that we could definitely categorise as "Tourist Keris", but I have not seen these in either Bali or Jawa for many years. Typically the Balinese ones had highly carved black wood dress, often of good quality, and the blade was a piece of sheet iron with the pamor pattern etched onto it. The Javanese ones were mostly old dress with a piece of sheet iron, or a worthless old blade, holding it together. New and recent keris at the present time can definitely be considered as "real keris", but the quality is related to what the buyer is prepared to pay.

28th January 2011, 07:15 AM	#19
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I GUESS I SHOT MYSELF IN THE FOOT ON THAT ONE THINKING A LITTLE FURTHER ALONG THOSE LINES MY KERIS WOULD CEASE TO BE A KERIS BECAUSE I AM NOT FROM THE KERIS CULTURE AND DON'T USE IT FOR TRADITION OR CEREMONY AND JUST LIKE TO HANDLE AND LOOK AT THEM. OF COURSE THATS NONSENCE A KERIS IS A KERIS TOP GRADE OR COMMON GRADE. THE TOP QUALITY KERIS ARE WORKS OF ART BUT STILL KERIS AND JUST SHOW OFF A HIGHER LEVEL OF CRAFTSMANSHIP AND MATERIALS. THEY SELL TO A HIGHER CLIENTEL WHO APPRECIATE THAT HIGH LEVEL OF WORKMANSHIP AND MATERIALS. THAT TOO IS TRADITIONAL AS SUCH THINGS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN MADE FOR ROYALTY AND THE WEALTHY. PERHAPS THE STATUS OF A KERIS IS DIFFERENT TO SOME COLLECTORS TODAY THAN IN THE PAST BUT SOME TRADITIONS STILL APPLY. I WAS PRIVELEDGED TO HANDLE QUITE A FEW OF THE HIGH QUALITY KERIS WHEN IN BALI A FEW YEARS AGO. I APPRECIATE THE MATERIALS,WORKMANSHIP AND HISTORY OF KERIS. I FIND THEM BEAUTIFUL AS LIKE SNOWFLAKES NO TWO ARE ALIKE. THE PLEASING SHAPES OF BLADE SCABBARD AND HANDLE. THE BEAUTIFUL WOOD GRAINS COMPETE WITH THE PARMOR IN THE BLADES AND THE CARVEING AND FITTINGS ARE THE ICING ON THE CAKE. TO HAVE A COLLECTION OF EVERY VARIATION OF KERIS ONE WOULD HAVE TO OWN EVERY LAST ONE.