"Elephant" Keris

[Bill M]

I am dispensing with Javanese terms about keris privacy. I think that my blades are to be used for discussion. I acquired them because I like them. I have no illusions about my knowledge or lack of knowledge as to technical details and invite your discussion.

I am a collector. I do not sell, nor have any intent to sell, nor to explain my source. These keris are stored away in a vault for the past few years with temperature and humidity controlled. If you want to see more pictures, it may take a while to dig through my files.

So here is one of my favorites and am using a name that comes to my mind. The Elephant. I invite your comments. Thank you, Bill

[David]

Originally Posted by Bill M

...I acquired them because I like them. I have no illusions about my knowledge or lack of knowledge as to technical details and invite your discussion.
So here is one of my favorites and am using a name that comes to my mind. The Elephant. I invite your comments. Thank you, Bill

I understand that you do not feel knowledgeable enough to comment further on your keris in terms of technical details, but perhaps you could expand upon why this is one of your favorite keris.
I also have a keris in my collection that has a winged, crowned elephant motif at the base of the blade as does yours. It is a contemporary blade as i believe yours is as well. I have never photographed this blade and it is currently in storage so i probably won't be showing it anytime soon, but i have seen this motif many times. It might be interesting to aim at least part of this discussion at the symbolism behind this creature.

[Jean]

Hello Bill,
The winged elephant motif on the sorsoran is normally part of the dapur Lar Monga with 3 waves, or Liman Lar with 11 waves, not 13 as your blade.
I can understand why you like this blade because the design and workmanship are quite spectacular, what puzzles me is that the style of the elephant head is different on each side?
As said by David, I think that it is probably a recent creation, normally the blade is not carved through like yours, see a more traditional blade with dapur Lar Monga/ Urubing Dilah.
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

The winged elephant motif on the sorsoran is normally part of the dapur Lar Monga with 3 waves, or Liman Lar with 11 waves, not 13 as your blade.
I can understand why you like this blade because the design and workmanship are quite spectacular, what puzzles me is that the style of the elephant head is different on each side?

Jean, i believe that Bill is actually showing us two completely different keris in his post. The style is not different on each side. These are not the same blade.

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

I think that it is probably a recent creation, normally the blade is not carved through like yours, see a more traditional blade with dapur Lar Monga/ Urubing Dilah.

Most of the examples i have seen of winged elephants carved on blades are rather recent. Is your example an older one. The new examples i have seen do not seem to adhere to any rules of number of luks. I have seen this motif carved on everything from a straight (lurus) blade to 13 luk blades like Bill's and everything in between.
Are you aware of what the significance of the number of luks in the tradition form you speak of means or what place or meaning this particular winged elephant motif might serve?

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

Jean, i believe that Bill is actually showing us two completely different keris in his post. The style is not different on each side. These are not the same blade.

Ouch, confusing indeed, thanks!

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

Most of the examples i have seen of winged elephants carved on blades are rather recent. Is your example an older one. The new examples i have seen do not seem to adhere to any rules of number of luks. I have seen this motif carved on everything from a straight (lurus) blade to 13 luk blades like Bill's and everything in between.
Are you aware of what the significance of the number of luks in the tradition form you speak of means or what place or meaning this particular winged elephant motif might serve?

Hello David,
My specimen seems to have some age and the elephant head not carved more recently but I can't guarantee it.
The 2 dapur types which I have mentioned with this winged elephant motif are recognized ones (Mangar Mongla with 3 luk by Haryoguritno and the reference book Dhapur, and Liman Lar with 11 luk in the EK). However I don't know whether the number of luks of the blades with this motif has any significance or not.
Regards

[David]

Originally Posted by Jean

However I don't know whether the number of luks of the blades with this motif has any significance or not.

Well, i would image that the number of luks generally carried some significance and that significance probably varies dependent upon the time period of the blade's origin. I have just never seen any of these laid out for any given era in any convincing manner. But why choose a particular number of luk for your keris if the number has no significance.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by David

I understand that you do not feel knowledgeable enough to comment further on your keris in terms of technical details, but perhaps you could expand upon why this is one of your favorite keris.

David, I just like the elephant and how the trunk comes into play. I do believe it is more recent, but the carving is very nice. Amazing work.

I think I will dig out both of these and bring further pictures.

I find something that I like and it grabs me. Why? dunno. But I want it.

I was in a hurry and added in the second elephant keris not meaning to do so, nor to confused.

[A. G. Maisey]

Bill, you have invited comment on this keris.

Are you able to be more precise in respect of the information you would like to receive?

The motif in the sorsoran might be able to be understood as a flying elephant, how that might be able to be interpreted might be able to be associated with a Javanese cult, the talismanic qualities that the motif is believed to incorporate could depend upon how it is interpreted.

The name of the motif is manglar mongo (also manglar munga --- and several other spelling variations which can mean different things); the language can be read as Javanese, but it might be Kawi or corrupted Kawi. Over the years several native speakers of Javanese have given me a number of different meanings, and those meanings have varied, depending upon how they felt at the time.

As for the matter of luk meanings, it might be best not to go there, if we wish to finish this thread before Christmas 2019.

EDIT

I have just finished a telephone conversation with the most accomplished native speaker of Javanese with whom I am acquainted. He assures me that the words "manglar monga" and all variations in spelling thereof make no sense to him, however, in light of the fact that wings are involved, he has suggested that "manglar" should understood as being associated with wings, thus it should be understood as "mang + lar" = "to have grown wings".

His guess is that manga/munga/mongo/ & etc, etc, etc could be dialect or a different language entirely, possibly a language from Sulawesi or Sumatera, or even a level of Javanese that he does not use (he uses the normal four levels of Javanese when speaking Javanese).

So, looking at the motif of an elephant with wings, maybe one day we'll find out that for somebody, somewhere "munga" means elephant.

FURTHER EDIT

On the other hand, maybe this motif should not be referred to as "manglar mongo" at all, maybe it should be taken as "liman lar":- liman = elephant, lar = wings, liman lar is a legitimate motif, mostly in Madura keris.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

As for the matter of luk meanings, it might be best not to go there, if we wish to finish this thread before Christmas 2019.

Well that's the nice thing about internet forums. A thread doesn't need to end this Christmas, next Christmas or ever for that matter. And we can walk away and come back to the subject again and again whenever there is more to say or share. Nothing really good comes quickly or easily.

[A. G. Maisey]

True David, true, but I think Ill stay out of luk discussion.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

True David, true, but I think Ill stay out of luk discussion.

That is a shame. I was hoping that you might have some of the more interesting things to say on the subject.

[Bill M]

Alan, thank you as always for your insightful remarks. I am learning and having a great time.

Looking forward to your comments on "Luks". I have read that the number of luks are important numerology to the Javanese?

So I have been questioned that I ask questions that are not relevant, so I am moving slowly and digesting.

[kai]

Hello Bill,

I assume you may have missed this paper from Alan during your forum abstinence; recommended reading for sure:
http://kerisattosanaji.com/INTERPRETATIONPAGE1.html

If this results in even more questions, I guess we can coax Alan into giving some more comments later...

Regards,
Kai

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by kai

Hello Bill,

I assume you may have missed this paper from Alan during your forum abstinence; recommended reading for sure:
http://kerisattosanaji.com/INTERPRETATIONPAGE1.html

If this results in even more questions, I guess we can coax Alan into giving some more comments later...

Regards,
Kai

Thank you Kai, he sent me a copy. I just have not had time to read it. I am very busy winding up some year-end business. Been working at least 12 hours a day, and at the age of 75 (could you believe it?) I am slowing down. Will send you a private email when I can dash one off.

EDITED: I have taken a while to read the above paper. It is opening ideas and symbols that make sense with some of my understanding of the Hindu. And much better understanding of the keris.

He has spelt out many of the questions that seem to be repeated here. Simple answers that open new ideas and questions. I plan to reread this paper through several more times hoping for better understanding.

Anne and I have collected a variety of artifacts from various cultures. There is a clear understanding that none of the creators were making decorations, but important working tools to define the bridges between visible and invisible realms.

Beauty when we reach it in a visceral sense is a reflection of higher realms. Objects we see as beautiful are therefore because they are rooted in a rarefied (from our limited perspectives) atmospheres.

Following them, we can reach higher degrees of spirituality.

In one of the disciplines I have studied has physical signs, smells, sounds, vibrations, animals and objects where we can surround ourselves. Then go into a meditative state and gain a fingernail grip on an otherwise level we had not really imagined.

I have looked at a keris blade by a single candle and it sometimes seems alive and moving. Perhaps a Tree in a gentle breeze.

I am seeing a new depth in kerisology, the meaning of the blumbagan, the ron dha (om), the lingam and the yoni. The Tree of Life. Fascinating!