Swords a la Portuguese ... Part two

Reventlov · 25th August 2017, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Although a more precise style as depicted in the panels is more like this one, a typical Portuguese sword of the third quarter XV cebtury.

Yes, I am familiar...

At risk of straying a little off topic, I found this book quite interesting and you might as well. It tries to build a case for a very early dating of the altarpiece, c. 1450. I'm not sure I was really convinced, but I also couldn't immediately dismiss their arguments out of hand. The discuss the swords in particular, trying to show that they could be as early as they suggest - they included the sword above as an example of the "end point" of this trend in hilt design.

Now that I've been searching a little further online, I notice that several of the statues they included as comparative examples are dated several decades later by the Museum of Antique Art, so that's not encouraging... They do offer the effigy of Fernão Gomes de Góis as an example showing the double patillas finger-rings, and this is dated 1439-40.

The panels were dendrochronologically analyzed and must have been painted after 1442, so the early date cannot be excluded on those grounds, but neither can a later date or course...

fernando · 25th August 2017, 04:46 PM

I will be honest with you, Reventlov; the variation range of the discussed dates, although interesting for academics, rests beyond my empirical reach, as only representing, in maximum, some thirty years in a work made over five centuries ago. I understand this could influence a bench mark towards the date of determined weapon (sword) styles, but i am also aware that a lot of ink has already bein consumed in discussing these enigmatic panels date, the intention that moved the author, the figures they represent, and even the painting method used, namely (in rough terms) tempera over oak wood, oil painted or plaster and glue ... each one with a 'plausible' explanation; X rays, chromatic layers, you name it. Even registered doubts on who was the author remained for a long time.
And of course the analysis of the panels wood used for the panels doesn't prevent that the authjor could have used old raw mateial.
At this stage its inventory card appoints to the wise date range 1450-1490.
http://www.matriznet.dgpc.pt/MatrizN...x?IdReg=252075.
On the other hand if you refer to 'the sword above' as the one you posted, i would be confused, as the swords those guys inte panels are holding are visibly like the sketch i posted in reply.
However, if the book you mention were available online, i would certainly read it.
Kind regards
fernando

Reventlov · 26th August 2017, 11:45 AM

I understand how you feel Fernando... The puzzle of these panels piques my curiosity, but I will no pretend that I have any particular insight one way or the other! The sword I refer to is the first one I posted (ie. not like what actually appears in the panels) - it makes sense in context in the book, it was just included at the end of a general overview of Portuguese swords in the 15th-16th century. The book is not online unfortunately... It's relatively short though, and not overly technical: the section on arms and armor is worth browsing at least.

fernando · 26th August 2017, 06:15 PM

But ... can you read portuguese ?

Reventlov · 26th August 2017, 07:03 PM

Not really, but I have enough Spanish and French that I can at least get the gist of things... like I said, the book was really not very technical at all!

fernando · 5th September 2017, 04:32 PM

The Kongo kingdom was defined by the mutation process where European elements were incorporated in domestic culture.
Portuguese arrived in Congo in 1482 and soon converted the local monarchs to Christianty. The first monarch to be baptized was Nzinga-a-Nkuwu, with Christian name João I in 1491. The process went smoothly because the Christian elements called for domestic ideas on their own ideology. Afonso I (1509-1540), the secong king converted to christianty, had seen this well, and confirmed his power for the Europeans and for the domestic population by the setting up with catholicism. The European elite symbol, the sword, was taken over. Together with the crucifix, these two European elements have certainly incorporated most of the habits of the Bakongo (Wannyn 1961, 67).
Deceased Kongo monarchs were found buried with these swords in a Christian attitude.
The symbolism behind the sword for the Bakongo is reduced to the domestic ideas concerning iron and their own theology which was reflected in the form of the sword. Also the rituals which were carried out with the swords reflected this symbolism; in any case the swords came initially from Europe. At the time of the Portugese, European swords were used. Later these became scarcer and domestic copies started being made.
The last soba to have a portuguese Christian name was Soba Nkanga-a-Lukeni, Garcia II (1641-1661). This adds to two centuries of culture blending.

.

Pieje · 25th October 2017, 01:55 PM

These are indeed what they call “ethnographical Mbele a Lulendo swords”, based on the Portuguese swords introduced at the Bakongo kingdom as early as end of 15th century.
First the original Portuguese swords, than imported European blades (Germany, Italy..), later fully locally made. These had a great symbolic function and were used by chiefs, often buried with them after their death, as those found in Kindoki (Bas-Congo).
Later these were placed next to the tomb of a dead chief, which resulted in the loss of the lower part of the blade. I once owned three of these rare swords, but I only kept one in my collection.

5th September 2017, 04:32 PM	#6
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,647	More on the history of these colonial swords ... The Kongo kingdom was defined by the mutation process where European elements were incorporated in domestic culture. Portuguese arrived in Congo in 1482 and soon converted the local monarchs to Christianty. The first monarch to be baptized was Nzinga-a-Nkuwu, with Christian name João I in 1491. The process went smoothly because the Christian elements called for domestic ideas on their own ideology. Afonso I (1509-1540), the secong king converted to christianty, had seen this well, and confirmed his power for the Europeans and for the domestic population by the setting up with catholicism. The European elite symbol, the sword, was taken over. Together with the crucifix, these two European elements have certainly incorporated most of the habits of the Bakongo (Wannyn 1961, 67). Deceased Kongo monarchs were found buried with these swords in a Christian attitude. The symbolism behind the sword for the Bakongo is reduced to the domestic ideas concerning iron and their own theology which was reflected in the form of the sword. Also the rituals which were carried out with the swords reflected this symbolism; in any case the swords came initially from Europe. At the time of the Portugese, European swords were used. Later these became scarcer and domestic copies started being made. The last soba to have a portuguese Christian name was Soba Nkanga-a-Lukeni, Garcia II (1641-1661). This adds to two centuries of culture blending. . Attached Images

25th October 2017, 01:55 PM	#7
Pieje Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Belgium Posts: 132	These are indeed what they call “ethnographical Mbele a Lulendo swords”, based on the Portuguese swords introduced at the Bakongo kingdom as early as end of 15th century. First the original Portuguese swords, than imported European blades (Germany, Italy..), later fully locally made. These had a great symbolic function and were used by chiefs, often buried with them after their death, as those found in Kindoki (Bas-Congo). Later these were placed next to the tomb of a dead chief, which resulted in the loss of the lower part of the blade. I once owned three of these rare swords, but I only kept one in my collection. Attached Images

25th August 2017, 04:46 PM	#2
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,647	I will be honest with you, Reventlov; the variation range of the discussed dates, although interesting for academics, rests beyond my empirical reach, as only representing, in maximum, some thirty years in a work made over five centuries ago. I understand this could influence a bench mark towards the date of determined weapon (sword) styles, but i am also aware that a lot of ink has already bein consumed in discussing these enigmatic panels date, the intention that moved the author, the figures they represent, and even the painting method used, namely (in rough terms) tempera over oak wood, oil painted or plaster and glue ... each one with a 'plausible' explanation; X rays, chromatic layers, you name it. Even registered doubts on who was the author remained for a long time. And of course the analysis of the panels wood used for the panels doesn't prevent that the authjor could have used old raw mateial. At this stage its inventory card appoints to the wise date range 1450-1490. http://www.matriznet.dgpc.pt/MatrizN...x?IdReg=252075. On the other hand if you refer to 'the sword above' as the one you posted, i would be confused, as the swords those guys inte panels are holding are visibly like the sketch i posted in reply. However, if the book you mention were available online, i would certainly read it. Kind regards fernando

26th August 2017, 11:45 AM	#3
Reventlov Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 132	I understand how you feel Fernando... The puzzle of these panels piques my curiosity, but I will no pretend that I have any particular insight one way or the other! The sword I refer to is the first one I posted (ie. not like what actually appears in the panels) - it makes sense in context in the book, it was just included at the end of a general overview of Portuguese swords in the 15th-16th century. The book is not online unfortunately... It's relatively short though, and not overly technical: the section on arms and armor is worth browsing at least.

26th August 2017, 06:15 PM	#4
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,647	But ... can you read portuguese ?

26th August 2017, 07:03 PM	#5
Reventlov Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 132	Not really, but I have enough Spanish and French that I can at least get the gist of things... like I said, the book was really not very technical at all!