Mazar i Sharif mark.

Dmitry · 22nd September 2011, 08:52 PM

Did the Mazar i Sharif arsenal produce small arms, or the mark conventionally known as the "Mazar i Sharif" indicated that a weapon was just stored and provenanced there? The mark resembles the Hazrat Ali temple, aka the Blue Mosque.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazar-i-Sharif
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrine_of_Hazrat_Ali

spiral · 23rd September 2011, 12:03 AM

The Mazar i Sharif mosque stamp, is also found on firearms made & permantly stored at Kabul.

The same mark appears on Afghan Coins,stamps & flags.

So personaly I see it as rather more a Royal Afghan Symbol of ownership rather than a dedication of where it was made.

Ive had 6 such marked pieces, one was probably a German made {certanly European}double fullered trade bladed sword , others were tulwar type swords,bayonets & a kukri.

The Afghans adopted & copied many weapons, as I expect they still do.

Spiral

Dmitry · 23rd September 2011, 02:55 AM

Thanks for your educated reply. The perplexity for me, perhaps from not being well-versed in the realms of the Central Asian weapons, is that the pieces marked with "M-i-S" stamp are not pattern weapons, but a hodge-podge of various styles. Does that mean that the weapons stored in the Kabul arsenal were of all walks of life, without any standardization at all? How were they acquired?

AJ1356 · 23rd September 2011, 06:11 PM

If you have a pic of something I can help you. As said before the mark is the royal government seal, the mosque symbol is not neccessarily of the mosque in Mazar e Sharif. However I have seen older peices with the city where is was made, stamped or engraved on them.

Jim McDougall · 23rd September 2011, 07:17 PM

It seems that this distinctive stamp, which usually appears in the upper left quadrant of the forte on many of the Afghan military sabres of c.1890s has typically been referred to as representing the "Blue Mosque" at Mazir-i-Sharif.
In research and discussions with scholars some years ago at least, this seemed generally held. The Mosque is also known as the "Shrine of Hazrat Ali" and is a principal location much revered in the Sh'ia Faith.

It seems that after the 2nd Anglo-Afghan War (ended 1880) Emir Abdur Rahman Khan made agreements with the British which included considerable arrangements for procurement of arms for his standing army. British assistance in many aspects included minting of coins, and as I recall, this image also appears on many coins of this period. I believe the knuckleguard and overall appearance of the military sabres is derived from western military fashion, and the Afghan army even wore the metal 'Albert' type helmets familiar in British cavalry regiments. Some of the Afghan units also wore kilts.

In any case, it would seem to me that these markings were probably more collectively indicative of the regime of Abdur Rahman Khan than to signify to a distinct location such as arsenal such as suggested to Mazir-i-Sharif. While many of these Afghan swords seem to date from around 1893 to as late as 1903 from various known examples, it is notable that some of these post date Abdur Rahman Khan. His son, Habibullah Khan continued the regime, so it would be understandable of little change in these details. Many, if not even most of these swords were used in the 3rd Anglo-Afghan war in 1919, and of I understand correctly, the later issues had brass hilts of similar type. We have seen these hilts mounted on 'Khyber knife' blades as well.

Mazir-i-Sharif is located in the extreme north of Aghanistan however, and indeed was controlled by the Khanate of Bukhara into mid 18th century when it was taken over by the Durrani Empire, so Bukharen presence and influence was well placed. It is noted that its location kept Mazir-i-Sharif out of the direct combat events during the Anglo-Afghan wars, so it does seem possible that at certain times it may have served as a central repository or control location for weaponry, however it does not seem to me that the marking necessarily indicates that location. It seems more likely that it was a regime oriented marking relating to the armies of Abdur Rahman Khan.

All best regards,
Jim

Attached: Abdur Rahman Khan, note knuckleguard on paluoar
Map of Afghanistan, upper left is Uzbekistan, Mazir-i-Sharif near that upper border
The Afghan sabre marking

Jim McDougall · 27th September 2011, 03:19 AM

FINIS

TVV · 27th September 2011, 05:10 AM

I have posted this sword before, but just to keep the thread alive, here are two pictures of a Central Asian shashka with the Mazar i Sharif mark next to a Gurda, with what looks like a 19th century European made blade.
Regards,
Teodor

Dmitry · 27th September 2011, 03:46 PM

Here's a very similar Central Asian shashka I had. M-i-S mark, along with the year 1312/1894-5 , and another small mark on the ricasso. The blade is indeed a European import to my eyes as well. Not the most balanced sword I've had, heavy and unwieldy.
An interesting feature is that the grip scales appear to be of rhinoceros horn, which I find unusual for the region.

AJ1356 · 26th August 2012, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

If you have a pic of something I can help you. As said before the mark is the royal government seal, the mosque symbol is not neccessarily of the mosque in Mazar e Sharif. However I have seen older peices with the city where is was made, stamped or engraved on them.

I thought I had corrected this b4. The mark is called Mehrab o Munbar, it is not a representation of a mosque but the representation of the ("alter area"/prayer area for the Imam) of the inside of a traditional mosque.

A search of Mihrab/Minbar would give you detail explaination and also more pictures. I just took one of the recent Afghan seals and marked the Mihrab and Minbar, The only time those 2 items were not part of the Afghan government seal was during the early part of the communist era. It signifies that the government is an Islamic government, again has nothing to do with the Mazar e Sharif mosque/shrine.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 26th August 2012, 05:15 PM

Salaams all ~ I think this has been sorted before and on other threads..by AJ1356 who must be thinking why has this turned up again as a question...?

Quote "the mark is the royal government seal, the mosque symbol is not neccessarily of the mosque in Mazar e Sharif" Unquote. Plus on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15995

I find it very interesting however to see a clear illustration of the seal detail above by AJ1356 which is excellent for library and the excellent pictures of the Shashqa... and not overlooking the in depth research and application of library and personal input by Jim...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

spiral · 27th August 2012, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

I thought I had corrected this b4. The mark is called Mehrab o Munbar, it is not a representation of a mosque but the representation of the ("alter area"/prayer area for the Imam) of the inside of a traditional mosque.

.

Brilliant stuff AJ! I realised years ago the mosque/armoury designation made no sense & tried to explain to evryone that it was a goverment mark as it occured on coins, weapons, flags etc.etc., not a mark of the Mazar al sharrif armoury as people used to say to me.

The info on shrine makes it all clear & is is easy to substatiate! Thank you for that info! Brilliant!

Thankyou!

Re. the repeating of info, sadly in the 14 odd years Ive tried to inform people of various facts on the forums, Ive found that one has to repeat it again & again, because

1, not evryone reads evry post.

2,not evryone remebers .

3, not evryone understands.

4,not evry one believes.

5,Some have an axe to grind, so are awkward just for the sake of it.

6, some whether right or wrong belive differently.

7, & to top it all, then new people come along who, missed what you said 10 years ago or even worse the find that original post & miss the later corrections & updates made. when one had learnt more..

Sae la vive...

Spiral

mohd · 30th August 2012, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

.. I thought I had corrected this b4. The mark is called Mehrab o Munbar, it is not a representation of a mosque but the representation of the ("alter area"/prayer area for the Imam) of the inside of a traditional mosque.

A search of Mihrab/Minbar would give you detail explaination and also more pictures. I just took one of the recent Afghan seals and marked the Mihrab and Minbar ..

Kindly allow me to correctly name those objects in the picture of the Afghan seal, please!

1. Babu-l-masjid is the gate of entrance to the mosque.

2. Mimbar (Arabic: منبر‎, also romanized as minbar) is a pulpit in the mosque where the imam (prayer leader) stands to deliver sermons (خطبة, khutbah). The word is a derivative of the Arabic root n-b-r ("to raise, elevate"); the Arabic plural is manābir (Arabic: منابر‎).

3. Mihrab (Arabic: محراب‎ miḥrāb, pl. محاريب mahārīb) is semicircular niche in the wall of a mosque that indicates the qibla; that is, the direction of the Kaaba in Mecca and hence the direction that Muslims should face when praying.

22nd September 2011, 08:52 PM	#1
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Mazar i Sharif mark. Did the Mazar i Sharif arsenal produce small arms, or the mark conventionally known as the "Mazar i Sharif" indicated that a weapon was just stored and provenanced there? The mark resembles the Hazrat Ali temple, aka the Blue Mosque. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazar-i-Sharif http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrine_of_Hazrat_Ali

23rd September 2011, 07:17 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	It seems that this distinctive stamp, which usually appears in the upper left quadrant of the forte on many of the Afghan military sabres of c.1890s has typically been referred to as representing the "Blue Mosque" at Mazir-i-Sharif. In research and discussions with scholars some years ago at least, this seemed generally held. The Mosque is also known as the "Shrine of Hazrat Ali" and is a principal location much revered in the Sh'ia Faith. It seems that after the 2nd Anglo-Afghan War (ended 1880) Emir Abdur Rahman Khan made agreements with the British which included considerable arrangements for procurement of arms for his standing army. British assistance in many aspects included minting of coins, and as I recall, this image also appears on many coins of this period. I believe the knuckleguard and overall appearance of the military sabres is derived from western military fashion, and the Afghan army even wore the metal 'Albert' type helmets familiar in British cavalry regiments. Some of the Afghan units also wore kilts. In any case, it would seem to me that these markings were probably more collectively indicative of the regime of Abdur Rahman Khan than to signify to a distinct location such as arsenal such as suggested to Mazir-i-Sharif. While many of these Afghan swords seem to date from around 1893 to as late as 1903 from various known examples, it is notable that some of these post date Abdur Rahman Khan. His son, Habibullah Khan continued the regime, so it would be understandable of little change in these details. Many, if not even most of these swords were used in the 3rd Anglo-Afghan war in 1919, and of I understand correctly, the later issues had brass hilts of similar type. We have seen these hilts mounted on 'Khyber knife' blades as well. Mazir-i-Sharif is located in the extreme north of Aghanistan however, and indeed was controlled by the Khanate of Bukhara into mid 18th century when it was taken over by the Durrani Empire, so Bukharen presence and influence was well placed. It is noted that its location kept Mazir-i-Sharif out of the direct combat events during the Anglo-Afghan wars, so it does seem possible that at certain times it may have served as a central repository or control location for weaponry, however it does not seem to me that the marking necessarily indicates that location. It seems more likely that it was a regime oriented marking relating to the armies of Abdur Rahman Khan. All best regards, Jim Attached: Abdur Rahman Khan, note knuckleguard on paluoar Map of Afghanistan, upper left is Uzbekistan, Mazir-i-Sharif near that upper border The Afghan sabre marking Attached Images

27th September 2011, 05:10 AM	#7
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,624	I have posted this sword before, but just to keep the thread alive, here are two pictures of a Central Asian shashka with the Mazar i Sharif mark next to a Gurda, with what looks like a 19th century European made blade. Regards, Teodor Attached Images

26th August 2012, 05:15 PM	#10
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all ~ I think this has been sorted before and on other threads..by AJ1356 who must be thinking why has this turned up again as a question...? Quote "the mark is the royal government seal, the mosque symbol is not neccessarily of the mosque in Mazar e Sharif" Unquote. Plus on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15995 I find it very interesting however to see a clear illustration of the seal detail above by AJ1356 which is excellent for library and the excellent pictures of the Shashqa... and not overlooking the in depth research and application of library and personal input by Jim... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 26th August 2012 at 05:38 PM.

23rd September 2011, 12:03 AM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	The Mazar i Sharif mosque stamp, is also found on firearms made & permantly stored at Kabul. The same mark appears on Afghan Coins,stamps & flags. So personaly I see it as rather more a Royal Afghan Symbol of ownership rather than a dedication of where it was made. Ive had 6 such marked pieces, one was probably a German made {certanly European}double fullered trade bladed sword , others were tulwar type swords,bayonets & a kukri. The Afghans adopted & copied many weapons, as I expect they still do. Spiral

23rd September 2011, 02:55 AM	#3
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Thanks for your educated reply. The perplexity for me, perhaps from not being well-versed in the realms of the Central Asian weapons, is that the pieces marked with "M-i-S" stamp are not pattern weapons, but a hodge-podge of various styles. Does that mean that the weapons stored in the Kabul arsenal were of all walks of life, without any standardization at all? How were they acquired?

23rd September 2011, 06:11 PM	#4
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 314	If you have a pic of something I can help you. As said before the mark is the royal government seal, the mosque symbol is not neccessarily of the mosque in Mazar e Sharif. However I have seen older peices with the city where is was made, stamped or engraved on them.

27th September 2011, 03:19 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	FINIS

27th September 2011, 03:46 PM	#8
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Here's a very similar Central Asian shashka I had. M-i-S mark, along with the year 1312/1894-5 , and another small mark on the ricasso. The blade is indeed a European import to my eyes as well. Not the most balanced sword I've had, heavy and unwieldy. An interesting feature is that the grip scales appear to be of rhinoceros horn, which I find unusual for the region.