large Keris

[Iliad]

Greetings all,
I have just now acquired a Keris which seems to me to be larger than normal. The seller (who probably knows even less than me!) thought that it is ceremonial rather than for use as a weapon. It is 25 inches long. The blade seems rather thin for use as a weapon. The Keris appears to me to have some age.
Any comments at all, good or bad, will be welcome. I paid very little for it, so not too worried about criticism.
Regards
Brian

[Battara]

A Balinese kris with the hilt in the form of Naga Sari (spelling?) who is a Balinese rice demon.

The dress is of recent manufacture. Not sure about the blade - I'll let the others answer that one.

[Sajen]

Sorry, bad news. This is a typical balinese tourist keris, the pamor is not a real one. Handle is nawasari in correct spelling.

Regards,

Detlef

[David]

I am afraid i am in agreement with Detlef. The pamor pattern here is fake. It has been painted on. This is a somewhat better attempt for a tourist keris than some. The form is a bit better and there is a separate gonjo, but i would still say this qualifies more as a "keris-like-object" (KLO) than the real thing.

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm sorry gentlemen, but based upon what I can see in the photo, I am not prepared to give this an unqualified designation of "tourist keris".

Yes, the scabbard and hilt are definitely manufactured for the Bali souvenir market, but not within the last few years, I'd place this work around 1970-80.

The blade is probably a plain old Balinese or Lombok blade. I've only got a photo to work on here, but I have never, ever seen a blade produced for the souvenir market that has had as much work put into it as this one. From what I can see, this is a genuine keris, however, a rather plain one. We must not forget that the vast bulk of keris were made for the vast bulk of people and the vast bulk of people did not have vast bulks of money.

However, to improve commercial appeal the "pamor" pattern has been produced by batiking the blade --- the pattern applied with wax, the blade stained, the wax washed off with boiling water.

In fact, I have now come to believe that keris like this one do have a place in a well balanced collection. Decent ones haven't been around in Bali for quite some time.

[Jean]

This style of ugly scabbard and hilt was still made during my last visit to Bali in 2007 but I agree with Alan that the blade seems to be a common quality one with some age and without pamor which was "treated" to make it more attractive. Personally I would try to clean the blade in vinegar which should remove the residual rust and fake pamor, and stain it again.
Regards

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Jean, still made, but of very poor quality.

The early ones could often be very good examples of skilled carving.

[David]

I think you are right Alan and i did rush to judgement to refer to this as a "KLO". I believe that you are correct that it is a rather low quality "real" blade that has been "upgraded" for more commercial appeal, though i can't imagine this was done for the indigenous market (but who knows).
The dress is a better carving than some of the examples i have seen of this dress form and i am of the mind as well that a good example of this dress does have a place in a well balanced collection and indeed have one with a much better blade in my own collection. While this form has become synonymous with the classic tourist keris i have also heard it referred to as "dance dress". I have thrown the question out before as to whether or not this could be the origins of such dress, but have never received and definite confirmation on that question.
Brian, i am with Jean in the suggestion that you try to clean and restain this blade in order to remove the nasty fake pamor.

[Henk]

I completely agree with Alan.

It is one of the better examples I've seen. And I've seen a lot of these cheap fake kerisses on the Dutch Indonesian markets with blades cut from sheetmetal.

Fake pamor? Yes and no. Probably a pamorless blade that turned into a pamorblade by the batik treatment.

[A. G. Maisey]

No, this false pamor would probably not have been done for any other reason but to make the keris more attractive as a souvenir, as you say David, not for the local market, but for the visitors. In fact, I feel that a close examination would show that this blade might have a pamor sanak. In the close up I think I can see one area of blade where there is a distinct separation between core and outer layers, so it just might have outer layers of plain iron, which by their nature would have needed to be welded and folded, which technically becomes pamor sanak.

I don't think we can call this type of keris a dance keris. Yeah, sure, this type or any other type might be used as a dance prop, but that is not its purpose. In fact, in Bali these days a lot of Balinese wear Javanese keris. You see the people whose job it is to keep order in public gatherings wearing low quality Javanese gayamans, I'd guess these are owned by the local banjar or banjars and given to these Harmony Keepers for the duration of the event.

For the future of this blade I'm with Jean & David:- get rid of the lies and let it be itself.

[Iliad]

Greetings,
Thanks to all who have contributed their expert opinions. I am quite happy to accept that the Keris is of souvenir quality, as I did not pay much for it. But, it looks great as a display piece!
Best,
Brian

[GIO]

My personal opinion:
clean the blade and, if possible, etch it. A real pamor may appear.
Throw away hilt and scabbard. You will easily find a better hilt, but not a scabbard, also due to the size of the blade.
The mendak (better "UWER" - thanks for correcting me, Jean) is good.

[VANDOO]

I AGREE THE BLADE APPEARS TO BE OLDER THAN THE FITTINGS AND THE FAKE PARMOR ADDS NOTHING TO THE KERIS SO REMOVING IT WOULD BE GOOD. THE SCABBARD AND HANDLE ARE FAIRLY GOOD EXAMPLES OF BALI WOOD CARVING AND THE STYLE HAS BEEN AROUND IN BALI FOR AT LEAST AS FAR BACK AS THE MID 1960'S PERHAPS LONGER. THE STYLE OF FULLY CARVING UNDOUTABLY WILL LOOK UGLY TO THOSE WHO LIKE THE MORE UNADORNED FITTINGS ON KERIS FROM BALI AND ELSEWHERE.
I DO NOT KNOW IF SUCH SCABBARDS AND HANDLES ARE USED BY LOCALS IN BALI OR IF THEY ARE STRICTLY FOR TOURISTS ONLY BUT THEY DO LOOK COOL TO ME.

[T. Koch]

Never knew that the backside of these wrangkas were carved with such nice motives.

Thanks for sharing!

[David]

Originally Posted by GIO

My personal opinion:
clean the blade and, if possible, etch it. A real pamor may appear.
Throw away hilt and scabbard. You will easily find a better hilt, but not a scabbard, also due to the size of the blade.
The mendak (better "UWER" - thanks for correcting me, Jean) is good.

GIO, while you are most certainly welcome to your personal opinion you may want to consider putting this into Brian's perspective. He is a general collector of weapons who only very casually collects the occassinal keris. He paid very little for this particular example. I doubt he is looking to spend much more to create an "ideal" example of a Bali keris. Given the quality of the blade itself it also wouldn't make sense even to me as someone who specializes in the collection of keris to throw much money at redressing such a blade when it has serviceable dress already. Your suggestion that he throw away the hilt and sheath seems a bit extreme to me. Cleaning and restraining the blade certainly seems worth the effort to return some dignity to this keris, but i am in agreement with Alan that even this apparently touristy style of dress has a place in a well rounded collection. This particular one is actually of better carving than most that i see of this type on the market. I am still left unsure of the origins of this particular dress type and don't know if it was ever acceptable for indigenous ethnographic usage, but as VANDOO points out it is a style that has been in existence for at least 50 years. To properly redress this blade would cost hundreds of dollars and Brian seems happy with the look of the ensemble as a display piece so i can't see why he would want to spend more money than he paid for the thing redressing it.

[Sajen]

First, I am in absolute agreement with David regarding redressing the blade in question.

While we still discuss this keris I have bought a keris in a similar dress/sarung in a little bit better form and with a good blade IMHO. See here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Kris...vip=true&rt=nc
By this I have the same question like David (who as well own a keris in a similar sarung): Was a keris in such a sarung ever acceptable for Bali people to wear it? Or was it only a way to sell a single blade, equal which quality, to tourists?

[David]

I have often seen halfway decent blades fitted into this type of dress. This may well be a way to cheaply sheath a naked blade in order to sell it. I do, however, have a variation on this sheath form which seems to clearly have been made for the blade, not simply refitted. So the question remains...

[Iliad]

David,
Thank you for your helpful and encouraging words.
You are correct in describing me as a general collector of weapons. Here in New Zealand I would be described as a "Magpie" collector. A Magpie is a bird which compulsively collects bright and shiny objects and takes them back to the nest. They can't be eaten, so are of no practical use to the bird, so I guess that he just looks at them with bird pleasure!
Could any other forum members be described as "Magpies"?
Best,
Brian

[A. G. Maisey]

Regarding use of this style of dress by Balinese people.

This is a non-traditional style of wrongko that does not fit any purpose in Balinese society --- except to sell to foreigners. There is a Balinese style, that is usually associated with a Balinese settlement in Madura, that echoes this scabbard style, it has a metal mask of Boma on its face.

With the early ones that were made, and through to the 1970's, maybe even early 1980's, old blades very often had this style of dress made for them, simply so they could be sold in the souvenir shops. It was not a re-fit job, not a matter of making the scabbard and then fitting a blade, it was a process of:- acquire blade, make dress, sell to tourist.

The uwer on this keris will be found to have plastic "jewels". It looks OK, but the "jewels" will be little bits of plastic.

[Jean]

Originally Posted by David

Cleaning and restaining the blade certainly seems worth the effort to return some dignity to this keris, but i am in agreement with Alan that even this apparently touristy style of dress has a place in a well rounded collection. This particular one is actually of better carving than most that i see of this type on the market. I am still left unsure of the origins of this particular dress type and don't know if it was ever acceptable for indigenous ethnographic usage, but as VANDOO points out it is a style that has been in existence for at least 50 years.

Just for reference, this is what Mr David Van Duuren thinks about this style of scabbard.
Regards

[Henk]

A lot of opinions here. I also agree completely with David. I would keep this keris as it is. If possible a proper stain of the blade to get the real pamor out otherwise i would leave it as it is.

When i was a youngster and put my first steps on collecting, i used to visit my neighbours of indonesian origin. They had such a keris on the wall. It was more in the style of the keris Detleff showed us. But i still remember that the backside of the scabbard was carved as well. I had the honor to handle this keris a few times. Probably because of my admiration of this keris. But this family believed also in the power of this keris. They where convinced this keris had a spirit and also made rituals to the keris. I also do remember that the Mrs told me that a friend of the family offered her a big amount of money for the keris. She didn't sell it because it was her family's heirloom.

So what is tourist?

Now i also have such a keris in my collection with a good balinese blade. In my opinion when the carving isn't done too sloppy such a keris fits well in a collection.

[GIO]

My proposal was not to spend much money: a decent Cecekahan or Bebondolan hilt is currently sold on ebay for about $ 50.00, and cleaning the blade with pineapple or lemon juce would bring out the pamor at practically no cost.
This said, I respect everybody's opinion and leave to the owner to make what he consider better for him. Now he has all information to decide.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Regarding use of this style of dress by Balinese people.

This is a non-traditional style of wrongko that does not fit any purpose in Balinese society --- except to sell to foreigners. There is a Balinese style, that is usually associated with a Balinese settlement in Madura, that echoes this scabbard style, it has a metal mask of Boma on its face.

With the early ones that were made, and through to the 1970's, maybe even early 1980's, old blades very often had this style of dress made for them, simply so they could be sold in the souvenir shops. It was not a re-fit job, not a matter of making the scabbard and then fitting a blade, it was a process of:- acquire blade, make dress, sell to tourist.

The uwer on this keris will be found to have plastic "jewels". It looks OK, but the "jewels" will be little bits of plastic.

Thank you Alan for clarification! This is what I have thought. And it is also a explanation that the better ( and I think also early ) ones of this scabbards house sometimes relative good blades while the roughly carved ones ( and therefore later ones ) house most of the time the KLO blades with batik pamor. At least is this what I have seen since I have had interest too keris.

[A. G. Maisey]

The reason that the early examples of this type of dress used old blades, sometimes of rather acceptable quality, is that way back then keris in Bali were very much undervalued.

In the 1960's and 1970's the value of a keris in Bali was next to nothing.

So, people had old blades hanging around, that had no scabbard or hilt, and thus were unsaleable to the tourists as souvenirs, because the tourists, being mostly westerners, did not understand that the true value of the keris, both monetary and spiritual, was in the blade.

To make these old blades saleable they were given to the carvers in Mas who developed a form of dress that displayed the carvers' skills and which was attractive to the visitors to Bali as a souvenir.

Eventually the real blades ran out. There was now a market for these souvenir keris but no real blades were left to fill the scabbards.

So the Balinese people began to produce keris blades made from flat iron and give this flat iron a false pamor.

The tourists didn't care, they were buying the carving, not the blade.


People go to Bali now and come home with their suitcases full of clothes with prestige labels --- all fake of course, but in the best examples as good as, or maybe even better than the originals. I know two professional women who go to Bali every six months to update their wardrobes.

Factories are set up to produce the famous brands of surf clothes. Factories that the Australian owners then go to Bali and burn down, only to see them in production again in 6 months time. Or sooner.

In Bali, as in Indonesia in general, fake everything floods the market. You really do need to be very, very skilled and knowledgeable to buy any genuine article of any kind from an Indonesian source.

But back in the 1960's, 1970's, and even as late as 1982, it was very different. If you went to Bali for a holiday you always took your old Levi jeans and a couple of second-hand surf towels. A pair of Levi jeans would cover a week's accommodation in a homestay.Including breakfast.Black rice pudding or banana pancakes.

You could exchange the towels for the other comforts of home.


When we consider anything at all to do with keris we need to consider not the keris, but the condition of the society at the relevant time.

This is as true of the recent past as it is of the distant past.

Don't ask your questions in terms of just the keris.

Ask your questions in terms of the society.

[Sajen]

Thank you very much for the further and detailed execution, very feasible and informative.

Regards,

Detlef

[Jean]

Originally Posted by Sajen

Thank you very much for the further and detailed execution, very feasible and informative.

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Alan,
I fully agree with Detlef (except the execution )!
Regards

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Jean

Hi Alan,
I fully agree with Detlef (except the execution )!
Regards

Hi Jean,

execution means the same as facture in france to my knowledge but I can be wrong since english isn't my mother language. I don't think that Alan has executed someone but has very good executed why sometimes good Bali blades found in this style of sarung!

Regards,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

Your phrasing was clear enough to me Detlef. I think Jean was playing with words and joking.