Super mandau

ariel · 11th May 2007, 05:40 AM

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...0219&rd=1&rd=1
The highest price for mandau I've seen....

Lew · 11th May 2007, 06:07 AM

Nice one but it does not look that old to me.

Lew

Bill M · 11th May 2007, 10:19 AM

Looks good to me. Sorin is definetely selling better quality pieces!

katana · 11th May 2007, 12:00 PM

Unfortunately the images are no longer available on the listing

VVV · 11th May 2007, 02:08 PM

It's not a langgai tinggang nor a mandau.
If it really would have been an old LT it probably would have been 2 - 3 times as expensive.
But I find it a very interesting non-documented Iban Parang anyway and I especially like its hilt and blade.

Michael

asomotif · 11th May 2007, 02:50 PM

It was relisted once, the first listing did not allow bids from outside USA.

Definately not a Langgai Tinggang.
As per Ben's rules also not a Jimpul. But still, nice blade, nice hilt.

Didn't this come from an ebay auction in the USA last month ?

Lew · 11th May 2007, 04:36 PM

The scabbard looks new and has no real patina to it. The red fabric is fresh and there is no wear or dirt on the stitching? The forging on the scroll work is ok but it seems very simple not like what I have seen on older swords. My guess is that it is of recent manufacture. Here is a link to a early 20th century sword with a finer made blade the scabbard shows the proper patina for an older piece. The scroll work and general forging of the blade exhibits a more refined touch.

http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=361

Lew

VVV · 11th May 2007, 05:20 PM

Hi Lew,

I agree that the scabbard looks quite recent.
But I think that the parang on the link above is more related to this kind of non-documented Iban sword than the one on Artzi's site?
And the hilt form looks more like the rare kind shown in Iban Art pict.135 or Coppens page 73 (far right).

Michael

Lew · 11th May 2007, 05:42 PM

VVV

My point was that the sword on ebay was recently made so in my opinion it is a copy possibly for sale to the locals. I can't see spending that much money for a recent blade no matter how rare the style. How does one know if a local shop in that area just copied it from a photo in a book?

Lew

katana · 11th May 2007, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Unfortunately the images are no longer available on the listing

Strange the images are back...must have been a problem with the eBay UK server

I cannot comment on the age etc, but I really like this form with the curved blade...

ariel · 11th May 2007, 06:18 PM

Quoting Michael:
"... I think that the parang on the link above is more related to this kind of non-documented Iban sword than the one on Artzi's site?
And the hilt form looks more like the rare kind shown in Iban Art pict.135 or Coppens page 73 (far right)."

Another one of my pseudophilosophical ramblings:
Why do we always try to pigeonhole every weapon into some predefined niche?
"This one is a Niabor, this one is a Jimpul, and that one is undefined or undocumented"

Do not get me wrong: it is important to know a correct name for many reasons, but these swords were made by hand, by illiterate village smiths who never belonged to trade guilds, had no manuals, no strict standards and no ethnographers standing behind their backs and ordering them to increase the angle just a bit to conform to Pic. X on Page Y in book Z.
Of course, every one of them had just a gestalt of what a mandau ( or anyrhing else) should look and just spiced it up from time to time with a crenellation here, a curlicue there and a recurve blade if he had a pariculatly good drink last evening.
The more we look at the swords, the more variability we find even within the same class. Not a miracle: it is an art first and foremost, and real art lets imagination run wild.
I just wonder what real head-hunting Dyaks from the 19th century would call this sword. Probably just "A Sword".

VVV · 11th May 2007, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Quoting Michael:
"... I think that the parang on the link above is more related to this kind of non-documented Iban sword than the one on Artzi's site?
And the hilt form looks more like the rare kind shown in Iban Art pict.135 or Coppens page 73 (far right)."

Another one of my pseudophilosophical ramblings:
Why do we always try to pigeonhole every weapon into some predefined niche?
"This one is a Niabor, this one is a Jimpul, and that one is undefined or undocumented"

Do not get me wrong: it is important to know a correct name for many reasons, but these swords were made by hand, by illiterate village smiths who never belonged to trade guilds, had no manuals, no strict standards and no ethnographers standing behind their backs and ordering them to increase the angle just a bit to conform to Pic. X on Page Y in book Z.
Of course, every one of them had just a gestalt of what a mandau ( or anyrhing else) should look and just spiced it up from time to time with a crenellation here, a curlicue there and a recurve blade if he had a pariculatly good drink last evening.
The more we look at the swords, the more variability we find even within the same class. Not a miracle: it is an art first and foremost, and real art lets imagination run wild.
I just wonder what real head-hunting Dyaks from the 19th century would call this sword. Probably just "A Sword".

The only reason for using collector terminology, like Jimpul and Niabor, is to be able to explain in one word what you are referring to and save space on this forum.

Non-documented f.i. means that it's not pictured in any of the books.

But I agree that a parang is a parang is a parang...

Michael

asomotif · 11th May 2007, 06:57 PM

Dear Lew,

A recent copy of this quality seems not likely to me.

But, as soon as they are offering them at a startprice of 0,99 from China I will certainly become very careful

Bill M · 12th May 2007, 01:18 AM

While I am not an expert in mandau, the buyer is. I think this is not a bad mandau.

Lew · 12th May 2007, 05:32 AM

[QUOTE=asomotif]Dear Lew,

A recent copy of this quality seems not likely to me.

Asomotif

By recent I mean the last 20 yrs or so. I just can't get by that new shellac look on the scabbard and the ultra new/clean red fabric with the pure white stitching it's screaming newly made at me. I usually have a good eye for detail when it comes to these things. It could be a marriage between an older hilt mid 20th century blade and a newly made scabbard

Lew

Dajak · 12th May 2007, 11:09 AM

Nice buy Michael it looks like an cross niabor /langai the name for such item I use seadajak sword or parang

Ben

Mytribalworld · 12th May 2007, 01:59 PM

[QUOTE=LOUIEBLADES]

Quote:

Originally Posted by asomotif

Dear Lew,

A recent copy of this quality seems not likely to me.

Asomotif

By recent I mean the last 20 yrs or so. I just can't get by that new shellac look on the scabbard and the ultra new/clean red fabric with the pure white stitching it's screaming newly made at me. I usually have a good eye for detail when it comes to these things. It could be a marriage between an older hilt mid 20th century blade and a newly made scabbard

Lew

We should beware only see mandaus with a nice dark patina as really old only.
I have seen some museum collections which contains tribal art pieces with provenance that looks brand new made but where 100 years old!

Arjan.

VVV · 12th May 2007, 05:12 PM

Thanks for all your comments.
I am a bit surprised that it draw so much attention based only on the pictures.
On the price it was because one other Borneo sword collecting member of this forum (who hasn't commented it here) also was sniping high - bad luck.
I will have a closer look when I recieve it in a week or two.

Ben, I think seadayak sword is a very good description for this kind of parang.
Lew, I never disagreed with you that the scabbard looks more recent.
It was more the hilt and blade that caught my interest.
But I have the same experience as Arjan on some collected weapons so it's still open until I have recieved the parang.

Michael

DaveS · 13th May 2007, 03:36 AM

Michael: Sorry for running up the bid a little higher than usuall on a mandau. When i see nice iban pieces, sometimes adrenaline takes over. I think Lew might be right. The scabbard looks newer, but the blade and handle look much older. Some one commented earlier about pieces that were in some museums that looked almost brand new, but with a provenance over 100 yrs old. This all depends on how well the sword was taken care of. If it was well taken care of by the owner and then put into a museum collection , then yes, it would look almost new. Our mandau collection numbers over 200 pieces, some low quality, some average quality, and some about as good as it can get. We started collecting mandaus over 20 yrs ago when no one wanted them......., they were considered JUNK, like moro swords and many other types of ethnic swords. How times have changed!!!!!!!!!!!!Dave.

Bill M · 13th May 2007, 04:22 AM

DaveS and LonnaS have some of the finest swords I have ever seen. Including those in museums! W

W!!

Dajak · 13th May 2007, 07:37 AM

Hi Micheal I have in my collection an nice parang pedang it was an bring back
from an british officer in 1820 it looks like it is 30 years old .
The most important thing to look at is the style handle and blade type .
even that the scabbard is later must be no problem to buy such an nice parang .
The most important thing is always handle and blade , and if it has an nice scabbard even better but not important .
To me it is to good to be an tourist item it looks like an 19cht blade and handle.

The red cloth on it is typical Iban .

Like to see close up pics when you get it

Ben

VVV · 14th May 2007, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveS

Michael: Sorry for running up the bid a little higher than usuall on a mandau. When i see nice iban pieces, sometimes adrenaline takes over...

Hi Dave,

I recognise that adrenaline feeling when I see something rare and unusual.

Ben, I will send you pictures when I have recieved it.

Michael

VVV · 22nd May 2007, 02:17 PM

Hi all,

I recieved the Iban parang today. The stichings are not as white as on the eBay pictures and the scabbard and blade also have more patina than anticipated. The only half-shiny part is along the edges where the blade has been cleaned a bit too much.
What's also very unusual with this Iban parang is that it is double edged at the tip.

Michael

Dajak · 22nd May 2007, 06:22 PM

Hi michael nice old one pics are somethimes dicieving

Ben

Lew · 22nd May 2007, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dajak

Hi michael nice old one pics are somethimes dicieving

Ben

The pics here are much better than what was on the auction. I can see more age and patina but I still think the price paid was high when compared to other swords from that region of the world but to each his own.

Lew

VVV · 22nd May 2007, 07:05 PM

Thanks Ben and Lew,

It still has more patina IRL but it's difficult to catch it on the pictures.

On the price I am happy and I have seen several less rare Dayak parang sell for >$ 2,000...
I agree however that the one you linked to usually sells for less than $ 1,000.

Michael

11th May 2007, 05:40 AM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Super mandau http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...0219&rd=1&rd=1 The highest price for mandau I've seen....

11th May 2007, 04:36 PM	#7
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	The scabbard looks new and has no real patina to it. The red fabric is fresh and there is no wear or dirt on the stitching? The forging on the scroll work is ok but it seems very simple not like what I have seen on older swords. My guess is that it is of recent manufacture. Here is a link to a early 20th century sword with a finer made blade the scabbard shows the proper patina for an older piece. The scroll work and general forging of the blade exhibits a more refined touch. http://www.oriental-arms.co.il/item.php?id=361 Lew Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 11th May 2007 at 04:51 PM.

11th May 2007, 05:20 PM	#8
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi Lew, I agree that the scabbard looks quite recent. But I think that the parang on the link above is more related to this kind of non-documented Iban sword than the one on Artzi's site? And the hilt form looks more like the rare kind shown in Iban Art pict.135 or Coppens page 73 (far right). Michael Attached Images

11th May 2007, 06:57 PM	#13
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	recent copy Dear Lew, A recent copy of this quality seems not likely to me. But, as soon as they are offering them at a startprice of 0,99 from China I will certainly become very careful

13th May 2007, 04:22 AM	#20
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	DaveS and LonnaS have some of the finest swords I have ever seen. Including those in museums! WW!!

11th May 2007, 06:07 AM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Nice one but it does not look that old to me. Lew

11th May 2007, 10:19 AM	#3
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	Looks good to me. Sorin is definetely selling better quality pieces!

11th May 2007, 12:00 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Unfortunately the images are no longer available on the listing

11th May 2007, 02:08 PM	#5
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	It's not a langgai tinggang nor a mandau. If it really would have been an old LT it probably would have been 2 - 3 times as expensive. But I find it a very interesting non-documented Iban Parang anyway and I especially like its hilt and blade. Michael

11th May 2007, 02:50 PM	#6
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	It was relisted once, the first listing did not allow bids from outside USA. Definately not a Langgai Tinggang. As per Ben's rules also not a Jimpul. But still, nice blade, nice hilt. Didn't this come from an ebay auction in the USA last month ?

11th May 2007, 05:42 PM	#9
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	VVV My point was that the sword on ebay was recently made so in my opinion it is a copy possibly for sale to the locals. I can't see spending that much money for a recent blade no matter how rare the style. How does one know if a local shop in that area just copied it from a photo in a book? Lew

11th May 2007, 06:18 PM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Quoting Michael: "... I think that the parang on the link above is more related to this kind of non-documented Iban sword than the one on Artzi's site? And the hilt form looks more like the rare kind shown in Iban Art pict.135 or Coppens page 73 (far right)." Another one of my pseudophilosophical ramblings: Why do we always try to pigeonhole every weapon into some predefined niche? "This one is a Niabor, this one is a Jimpul, and that one is undefined or undocumented" Do not get me wrong: it is important to know a correct name for many reasons, but these swords were made by hand, by illiterate village smiths who never belonged to trade guilds, had no manuals, no strict standards and no ethnographers standing behind their backs and ordering them to increase the angle just a bit to conform to Pic. X on Page Y in book Z. Of course, every one of them had just a gestalt of what a mandau ( or anyrhing else) should look and just spiced it up from time to time with a crenellation here, a curlicue there and a recurve blade if he had a pariculatly good drink last evening. The more we look at the swords, the more variability we find even within the same class. Not a miracle: it is an art first and foremost, and real art lets imagination run wild. I just wonder what real head-hunting Dyaks from the 19th century would call this sword. Probably just "A Sword".

12th May 2007, 01:18 AM	#14
Bill M Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA Georgia Posts: 1,599	While I am not an expert in mandau, the buyer is. I think this is not a bad mandau.

12th May 2007, 05:32 AM	#15
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	[QUOTE=asomotif]Dear Lew, A recent copy of this quality seems not likely to me. Asomotif By recent I mean the last 20 yrs or so. I just can't get by that new shellac look on the scabbard and the ultra new/clean red fabric with the pure white stitching it's screaming newly made at me. I usually have a good eye for detail when it comes to these things. It could be a marriage between an older hilt mid 20th century blade and a newly made scabbard Lew

12th May 2007, 11:09 AM	#16
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Nice buy Michael it looks like an cross niabor /langai the name for such item I use seadajak sword or parang Ben

12th May 2007, 05:12 PM	#18
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks for all your comments. I am a bit surprised that it draw so much attention based only on the pictures. On the price it was because one other Borneo sword collecting member of this forum (who hasn't commented it here) also was sniping high - bad luck. I will have a closer look when I recieve it in a week or two. Ben, I think seadayak sword is a very good description for this kind of parang. Lew, I never disagreed with you that the scabbard looks more recent. It was more the hilt and blade that caught my interest. But I have the same experience as Arjan on some collected weapons so it's still open until I have recieved the parang. Michael

13th May 2007, 03:36 AM	#19
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Michael: Sorry for running up the bid a little higher than usuall on a mandau. When i see nice iban pieces, sometimes adrenaline takes over. I think Lew might be right. The scabbard looks newer, but the blade and handle look much older. Some one commented earlier about pieces that were in some museums that looked almost brand new, but with a provenance over 100 yrs old. This all depends on how well the sword was taken care of. If it was well taken care of by the owner and then put into a museum collection , then yes, it would look almost new. Our mandau collection numbers over 200 pieces, some low quality, some average quality, and some about as good as it can get. We started collecting mandaus over 20 yrs ago when no one wanted them......., they were considered JUNK, like moro swords and many other types of ethnic swords. How times have changed!!!!!!!!!!!!Dave.

13th May 2007, 07:37 AM	#21
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi Micheal I have in my collection an nice parang pedang it was an bring back from an british officer in 1820 it looks like it is 30 years old . The most important thing to look at is the style handle and blade type . even that the scabbard is later must be no problem to buy such an nice parang . The most important thing is always handle and blade , and if it has an nice scabbard even better but not important . To me it is to good to be an tourist item it looks like an 19cht blade and handle. The red cloth on it is typical Iban . Like to see close up pics when you get it Ben

22nd May 2007, 02:17 PM	#23
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi all, I recieved the Iban parang today. The stichings are not as white as on the eBay pictures and the scabbard and blade also have more patina than anticipated. The only half-shiny part is along the edges where the blade has been cleaned a bit too much. What's also very unusual with this Iban parang is that it is double edged at the tip. Michael Attached Images

22nd May 2007, 06:22 PM	#24
Dajak Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 951	Hi michael nice old one pics are somethimes dicieving Ben

22nd May 2007, 07:05 PM	#26
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks Ben and Lew, It still has more patina IRL but it's difficult to catch it on the pictures. On the price I am happy and I have seen several less rare Dayak parang sell for >$ 2,000... I agree however that the one you linked to usually sells for less than $ 1,000. Michael