Cannon changes Australia history ?

fernando · 11th January 2012, 09:22 PM

Have you guys seen the news ?

http://www.couriermail.com.au/ipad/....-1226241146851

.

Matchlock · 12th January 2012, 12:02 AM

Remarkable find indeed, especially if it is of Portuguese manufacture!

Best,
Michl

fernando · 12th January 2012, 02:01 PM

That's precisely the point, Michl.
Portuguese style, no doubt, but ... Portuguese original manufacture or, cast in the West Indies ... Jawa, Sumatra, Malaca, under Portuguese supervision or later 'free lance' later copies, falling into the Lantaka area

.
Let's see what the local museum says ... assuming they hold the final truth.

cannonmn · 14th January 2012, 02:15 PM

Too bad the photos did not show the area just forward of the breech opening, as it appears to bear some type of raised symbol. One here is much larger and bears a kind of star with a button in the middle in that area, and I'm fairly certain it is Malaysian, or at least "South Pacific" in origin. Back to the young man's discovery, given the geography of the area, if I had to judge whether it is more likely that this came from say, Indonesia as opposed to Portugal, my money would be on the former every time.

This is an extremely small, light weapon of its type, smaller than I've ever seen before, and was probably that size because it was the largest such weapon that could be carried by some kind of canoe or very small vessel. This is not the type of vessel that would be capable of traveling from Portugel to Australia, but more likely one which could make the journey from Indonesia to Australia, if with great difficulty. I've seen quite a few much larger breechloading "pedreros" of cast bronze, similar in construction to the small one shown, and most seem to have bores in the two to three-inch range and weigh somewhere between 100-250 pounds. The young man's find looks to have something like a one-inch bore and probably weighs 20 pounds. I'll see if I can dig up a photo of the larger Malaysian one we have here (about four feet long, 1.5-inch bore, 60 lbs.)

fernando · 14th January 2012, 03:17 PM

The authenticity of this piece (as being Portuguese or not) doesn’t necessarily have be questioned by its small dimensions.
There were in fact small bronze ‘berços’ (cradles), cast in Lisbon, of the size fit to equip in batels (ships ‘multiuse’ auxiliary roaring boats) in disembarking operations and light enough to be carried by crew men in river exploits.
This recently found example might as well be a XVI-XVII century local interpretation of a Manuelin berço.
Attached is of such examples, cast in Oriental India between mid XVI and end XVII centuries, with a diameter of 1,5 cms and a cannon length of 97 cms. (excluding the cascavel).
Their ammunition was generally a lead bullet or a bamboo tube filled with small shot.
Still the authenticity of the one found in Australia is something to be discussed. This type of cannons, having joined the Lantaka family, were later (XIX century) developed into distinct purposes, as either operational or passive versions, the late being widely used as currency (cannon money).
Those bearing such examples in their hands are in a better condition to judge their purpose and originality.
Let’s see what those museum curators say about it … if only caring for the truth and not fearing to shake history concepts.

.

cannonmn · 14th January 2012, 07:02 PM

Amazing.

Quote:

Attached is of such examples, cast in Oriental India between mid XVI and end XVII centuries, with a diameter of 1,5 cms and a cannon length of 97 cms. (excluding the cascavel).

Fernando, the photos you posted there are as close to what I'd call a "dead ringer" (identical) as you can get. I isolated and compared features of the boy's cannon to yours and they are an excellent match down to some small details. I don't know the size of the boy's discovery so didn't compare that, but that's not as critical as the contours.

Question 1: If you could clarify this perhaps in terms that an American would understand:

Quote:

cast in Oriental India

Please where is that in other terms?

Question 2: How do we know or how can we prove that it was cast in "oriental India?"

Question 3: Do you have any closeup photos of the small raised insignia just forward of the breech opening?

Question 4: Regarding the Thunder Mug which is serving as the stand for the long gun: As I'm sure you know that is a separate device for signalling, making noise, celebrating. These are still widely used in Italy, lined up by the dozens or hundreds, along a train of blackpowder. Were any markings noticed on that item? Do you know where it came from?

fernando · 14th January 2012, 08:08 PM

The information provided was a transcription of a paper passed by Luso-German collector and arms historian Rainer Daehnhardt, who intended to divulge it among his Association fellow members and other acquaintances. In fact, during my visit to his premises near Lisbon a couple months ago, i had visual contact with this and other numerous cannons, that he displays in his estate gardens.
I understand that what he means by Oriental Indias is, for one, Indonesia, assuming that when he quotes the copy of these cannons by local 'mobile' smiths who worked under commission he names places like Jawa, Sumatra and Malaca.
I take it that he recognizes the origin of this (his) piece as 'provenly' from such provenance due to his experience with handling several of these things and not exactly because of this possible breech insignias.
Worthy of note is his quoting in this (sort of) publication that he once had the task to classify the Sultan of Brunai's cannons collection. Out of 900 tubes in bronze, from which a half dozen were breech loaders, only thirty were fire weapons ... the rest having been cast for purposes of money currency; they would burst if fired.
The Thunder Mug serving as a stand is, because he has quite a few around, he might find this one useful for these purposes ( i have a few, myself ).
I hope he doesn't mind that i post here some of the stuff he has in the gardens.
.

cannonmn · 14th January 2012, 09:01 PM

Thanks, yes I have corresponded with R.D. a few times. He speaks at least 7 languages and some mutual friends consider him extremely knowledgeable in various "odd" weapons to which the arms collecting world at large pays little attention.

I've seen a large number of Lantakas (sometimes called Lela) but I'm sure he knows a lot more about them than I. There's a good article by Pat Badillo, as I recall, in a Guns and Ammo magazine from about 1971, about Lantakas. Pat was an antiques dealer in the Macati (sp?) section of Manila in the 1970s and had some of the best lantakas I've ever seen. He had one in his store, perhaps 6 feet long, that had all kinds of floral designs including high-relief "bunches of grapes" cast into it, and the casting quality was as high as on any cannon Ive seen, even the 16th C German masterpieces. It was priced at $15,000. in 1973, which was more than I earned in a year at the time, so I had to leave it there. I'm guessing it wound up in Ferdinand Marcos' collection, but could have gone to Brunei as well.

Here's another article mentioning some past assertions about Portuguese visits to Australia.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/...over-australia

11th January 2012, 09:22 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Cannon changes Australia history ? Have you guys seen the news ? http://www.couriermail.com.au/ipad/....-1226241146851 . Attached Images

14th January 2012, 03:17 PM	#5
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	The authenticity of this piece (as being Portuguese or not) doesn’t necessarily have be questioned by its small dimensions. There were in fact small bronze ‘berços’ (cradles), cast in Lisbon, of the size fit to equip in batels (ships ‘multiuse’ auxiliary roaring boats) in disembarking operations and light enough to be carried by crew men in river exploits. This recently found example might as well be a XVI-XVII century local interpretation of a Manuelin berço. Attached is of such examples, cast in Oriental India between mid XVI and end XVII centuries, with a diameter of 1,5 cms and a cannon length of 97 cms. (excluding the cascavel). Their ammunition was generally a lead bullet or a bamboo tube filled with small shot. Still the authenticity of the one found in Australia is something to be discussed. This type of cannons, having joined the Lantaka family, were later (XIX century) developed into distinct purposes, as either operational or passive versions, the late being widely used as currency (cannon money). Those bearing such examples in their hands are in a better condition to judge their purpose and originality. Let’s see what those museum curators say about it … if only caring for the truth and not fearing to shake history concepts. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 14th January 2012 at 05:04 PM.

14th January 2012, 08:08 PM	#7
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	The information provided was a transcription of a paper passed by Luso-German collector and arms historian Rainer Daehnhardt, who intended to divulge it among his Association fellow members and other acquaintances. In fact, during my visit to his premises near Lisbon a couple months ago, i had visual contact with this and other numerous cannons, that he displays in his estate gardens. I understand that what he means by Oriental Indias is, for one, Indonesia, assuming that when he quotes the copy of these cannons by local 'mobile' smiths who worked under commission he names places like Jawa, Sumatra and Malaca. I take it that he recognizes the origin of this (his) piece as 'provenly' from such provenance due to his experience with handling several of these things and not exactly because of this possible breech insignias. Worthy of note is his quoting in this (sort of) publication that he once had the task to classify the Sultan of Brunai's cannons collection. Out of 900 tubes in bronze, from which a half dozen were breech loaders, only thirty were fire weapons ... the rest having been cast for purposes of money currency; they would burst if fired. The Thunder Mug serving as a stand is, because he has quite a few around, he might find this one useful for these purposes ( i have a few, myself ). I hope he doesn't mind that i post here some of the stuff he has in the gardens. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 14th January 2012 at 08:22 PM.

14th January 2012, 09:01 PM	#8
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Thanks, yes I have corresponded with R.D. a few times. He speaks at least 7 languages and some mutual friends consider him extremely knowledgeable in various "odd" weapons to which the arms collecting world at large pays little attention. I've seen a large number of Lantakas (sometimes called Lela) but I'm sure he knows a lot more about them than I. There's a good article by Pat Badillo, as I recall, in a Guns and Ammo magazine from about 1971, about Lantakas. Pat was an antiques dealer in the Macati (sp?) section of Manila in the 1970s and had some of the best lantakas I've ever seen. He had one in his store, perhaps 6 feet long, that had all kinds of floral designs including high-relief "bunches of grapes" cast into it, and the casting quality was as high as on any cannon Ive seen, even the 16th C German masterpieces. It was priced at $15,000. in 1973, which was more than I earned in a year at the time, so I had to leave it there. I'm guessing it wound up in Ferdinand Marcos' collection, but could have gone to Brunei as well. Here's another article mentioning some past assertions about Portuguese visits to Australia. http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/...over-australia Last edited by cannonmn; 14th January 2012 at 09:20 PM.

12th January 2012, 12:02 AM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Remarkable find indeed, especially if it is of Portuguese manufacture! Best, Michl

12th January 2012, 02:01 PM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	That's precisely the point, Michl. Portuguese style, no doubt, but ... Portuguese original manufacture or, cast in the West Indies ... Jawa, Sumatra, Malaca, under Portuguese supervision or later 'free lance' later copies, falling into the Lantaka area . Let's see what the local museum says ... assuming they hold the final truth.

14th January 2012, 02:15 PM	#4
cannonmn Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 161	Too bad the photos did not show the area just forward of the breech opening, as it appears to bear some type of raised symbol. One here is much larger and bears a kind of star with a button in the middle in that area, and I'm fairly certain it is Malaysian, or at least "South Pacific" in origin. Back to the young man's discovery, given the geography of the area, if I had to judge whether it is more likely that this came from say, Indonesia as opposed to Portugal, my money would be on the former every time. This is an extremely small, light weapon of its type, smaller than I've ever seen before, and was probably that size because it was the largest such weapon that could be carried by some kind of canoe or very small vessel. This is not the type of vessel that would be capable of traveling from Portugel to Australia, but more likely one which could make the journey from Indonesia to Australia, if with great difficulty. I've seen quite a few much larger breechloading "pedreros" of cast bronze, similar in construction to the small one shown, and most seem to have bores in the two to three-inch range and weigh somewhere between 100-250 pounds. The young man's find looks to have something like a one-inch bore and probably weighs 20 pounds. I'll see if I can dig up a photo of the larger Malaysian one we have here (about four feet long, 1.5-inch bore, 60 lbs.)