Pair of Bagh nakhs

Lew · 20th June 2011, 01:00 AM

Picked up a pair of Bagh nakhs the other day. They seem to be in good shape will clean them up and post better pics when I get them.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_2696wt_689

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_2728wt_689

KuKulzA28 · 20th June 2011, 03:15 AM

Amazing! Bagh Nakh never fail to interest me. Hopefully they will fit your hand! It's not as if you're likely to be fighting in the streets with these, but it's always nice to when the antique weapon suits your hand, just allows you to further appreciate them.

tom hyle · 20th June 2011, 03:26 PM

Indeed very much so; it is one thing to hold them as an object; quite a bit less abstract to be able to hold them as a weapon.

Lew · 20th June 2011, 03:59 PM

Here are some pics.

Jim McDougall · 21st June 2011, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

Here are some pics.

Great pics!
So what do we know about these? It seems I read somewhere these were used by the notorious Thuggee in India. Where were these used primarily as far as regions?

Lew · 21st June 2011, 09:36 PM

Jim

I don't know much about these weapons but they look as if they easily concealable so they may be an assassins tool? Maybe Jens can give some more info on them.

VANDOO · 21st June 2011, 11:01 PM

THE FOLLOWERS OF THUGEE WERE SUPPOSED TO KILL WITHOUT SPILLING BLOOD SO THESE WEAPONS WOULD NOT BE ASSOCIATED WITH THEM.
IT IS SAID TO BE A WEAPON USED BY ASSASINS AND AT LEAST ONE RULER WAS SAID TO HAVE BEEN ASSASINATED WITH THIS WEAPON.
WHEN WORN IT LOOKS LIKE THE WEARER HAS ON RINGS THE CLAW LIKE BLADES BEING CONCELED IN THE PALM OF THE HAND. THE THROAT BEING THE TARGET AND THE STRIKE USUALLY COMES FROM BEHIND.

ariel · 22nd June 2011, 02:18 AM

My only hesitation is their questionable age. There are far too many newly-made objects coming from India to ignore their pristine shape.
You have them in your hands and are the best judge: are they really old?

Lew · 22nd June 2011, 03:35 AM

Well I got one today and it's hard to tell it is well made but the claws are inserted into the iron bar via a copper or brass rod and there is signs of brass brazing around the perimeter of each claw so this may not be that old? I will see about the othe one when it gets here. The patina seems ok I brushed off some of the loose rust and what's left seems to be of the correct color of aged steel. Well if there of recent manufacture who ever made them did a great job The finals are faceted so I don't think someone would go to all that trouble to do this if they were trying to make a fake for $50-75?The blades are wicked sharp and I really did not over pay for them any way

Jim McDougall · 22nd June 2011, 06:46 AM

Thanks Lew and Barry. These really are an interesting weapon and I'm glad you posted them Lew ,as it presented a great opportunity to learn a bit more on them. Actually, in one respect they are indeed intended as perhaps an assassins weapon as they are indeed easily concealable. It seems that there is little known on these before the event which 'put them on the map' as it were, the use of these bagh nakh by the Maratha emperor Shivaji when he killed the Bijapur general Afzhal Khan in 1659. This was intended to be a 'meeting' but Shivaji went well prepared wearing mail under his clothing and concealing bagh nakh and a bichwa (scorpion dagger). The meeting developed the treachery Shivaji expected and Khan stabbed him in the back, and he dispatched Khan with these claws.
It would appear that these were primarily Maratha weapons from this recorded point and most examples seen from what I found in searching for info on them.

Barry,in my comment on thier use by the Thuggee sect, I think you are right in degree Barry as what I recall on these mysterious murderers and thieves who followed a strange path of belief toward the worship of Kali. They indeed were known to use strangulation to dispatch thier victims, as the spilling of blood was prohibited in this act. While it is unclear how faithfully this was followed, it does seem that the use of the 'tigers claw' was to present the appearance of death by these animals.
The thing is that the Thuggee always buried or disposed of thier bodies, and they operated so covertly in these deeds and disposing of evidence that thier very existence was often disputed. There would be no need to feign an animal attack on a victim if the body was likely to be discovered...and in the case of the very thorough Thugs, this would be patently absurd.

It is curious however that as I mentioned, I had read somewhere that these most unusual weapons were indeed used by Thuggee, and I finally found the reference. In "Knives and Daggers" (Z. Faktor, Prague, 1989, fig. 221. p.38) it is noted that, '...the characteristic weapon of the Thug sects in Punjab was the bagh nakh or tigers claws, formed by several sharpened hooks connected to a bar".
It would seem that the use of these Maratha weapons diffused into the northern regions, and the implication is of course that these sects of Thugs did as well. From what I found on the Thugs, the members of this sect transcended ethnic and religious boundaries and were comprised of Hindu's, Muslims and Sikhs. It would seem that these variations culturally as well as geographically may have had these weapons used by Thugs in the north, but not in the Deccan and southern regions.

Whatever the case, and regardless of the outcome in the assessment on the age of these examples, they are intriguing weapons that apparantly have caught the attention of many writers of fiction and adventure as frightening and mysterious weapons. There can be no denying that the innovation of the Indian armourers makes collecting from this vast subcontinent a fascinating adventure in itself!

Thank you Lew for sharing these!!!

All the best,
Jim

bhushan_lawate · 23rd June 2011, 07:27 AM

Hi,

Bagh nakhs were a common arsenal in the 16th/17th century and were carried by a group in the armies called "aad hatyari" loosely translated as the group carrying assorted weapons.

The other groups being sword bearers, gun bearers, lancemen, men with bow and arrow etc.

This was a weapon used to stun by surprise strike to the throat, belly etc. (targeting the muscular parts of the body)

Some of these also found application in scaling walls, climbing etc. (however, concrete evidence on this is yet to see the light of the day)

Regards,
Bhushan

KuKulzA28 · 23rd June 2011, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

Well if there of recent manufacture who ever made them did a great job The finals are faceted so I don't think someone would go to all that trouble to do this if they were trying to make a fake for $50-75?The blades are wicked sharp and I really did not over pay for them any way

Well if for whatever reason you don't want them because they're fake or whatever, I'd be glad to take them off your hands

Although it could be possible that it is modern made... I mean there are still very skilled smiths in India making traditional weaponry

Lew · 25th June 2011, 03:18 AM

The other one showed up today. Construction on the to center claws are the same as the other one but the two smaller claws on the rings are welded so I am leaning towards this being an old piece probably late 1800s?

katana · 26th June 2011, 11:16 PM

Hi Lew,
Nice, interesting items .....the rings are placed differently on each Bagh nakh...are they held differently ? Any chance of pictures with them 'in place' on your fingers ?

Kind Regards David

Lew · 27th June 2011, 03:19 AM

They are both left handed weapons each ring is a different size to accommodate the index and pinky finger. I will try and take a shot of them and post it later on in the week.

katana · 27th June 2011, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

They are both left handed weapons each ring is a different size to accommodate the index and pinky finger. I will try and take a shot of them and post it later on in the week.

Thanks Lew,
the reason I asked is that one has the rings above the 'bar' ....the other inline with it (the 'bar'). Look forward to the pics.

Best
David

20th June 2011, 01:00 AM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Pair of Bagh nakhs Picked up a pair of Bagh nakhs the other day. They seem to be in good shape will clean them up and post better pics when I get them. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_2696wt_689 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...#ht_2728wt_689

20th June 2011, 03:59 PM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Here are some pics. Attached Images

22nd June 2011, 03:35 AM	#9
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Well I got one today and it's hard to tell it is well made but the claws are inserted into the iron bar via a copper or brass rod and there is signs of brass brazing around the perimeter of each claw so this may not be that old? I will see about the othe one when it gets here. The patina seems ok I brushed off some of the loose rust and what's left seems to be of the correct color of aged steel. Well if there of recent manufacture who ever made them did a great job The finals are faceted so I don't think someone would go to all that trouble to do this if they were trying to make a fake for $50-75?The blades are wicked sharp and I really did not over pay for them any way Last edited by Lew; 22nd June 2011 at 04:29 AM.

20th June 2011, 03:15 AM	#2
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	Amazing! Bagh Nakh never fail to interest me. Hopefully they will fit your hand! It's not as if you're likely to be fighting in the streets with these, but it's always nice to when the antique weapon suits your hand, just allows you to further appreciate them.

20th June 2011, 03:26 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Indeed very much so; it is one thing to hold them as an object; quite a bit less abstract to be able to hold them as a weapon.

21st June 2011, 09:36 PM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Jim I don't know much about these weapons but they look as if they easily concealable so they may be an assassins tool? Maybe Jens can give some more info on them.

21st June 2011, 11:01 PM	#7
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE FOLLOWERS OF THUGEE WERE SUPPOSED TO KILL WITHOUT SPILLING BLOOD SO THESE WEAPONS WOULD NOT BE ASSOCIATED WITH THEM. IT IS SAID TO BE A WEAPON USED BY ASSASINS AND AT LEAST ONE RULER WAS SAID TO HAVE BEEN ASSASINATED WITH THIS WEAPON. WHEN WORN IT LOOKS LIKE THE WEARER HAS ON RINGS THE CLAW LIKE BLADES BEING CONCELED IN THE PALM OF THE HAND. THE THROAT BEING THE TARGET AND THE STRIKE USUALLY COMES FROM BEHIND.

22nd June 2011, 02:18 AM	#8
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	My only hesitation is their questionable age. There are far too many newly-made objects coming from India to ignore their pristine shape. You have them in your hands and are the best judge: are they really old?

22nd June 2011, 06:46 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Thanks Lew and Barry. These really are an interesting weapon and I'm glad you posted them Lew ,as it presented a great opportunity to learn a bit more on them. Actually, in one respect they are indeed intended as perhaps an assassins weapon as they are indeed easily concealable. It seems that there is little known on these before the event which 'put them on the map' as it were, the use of these bagh nakh by the Maratha emperor Shivaji when he killed the Bijapur general Afzhal Khan in 1659. This was intended to be a 'meeting' but Shivaji went well prepared wearing mail under his clothing and concealing bagh nakh and a bichwa (scorpion dagger). The meeting developed the treachery Shivaji expected and Khan stabbed him in the back, and he dispatched Khan with these claws. It would appear that these were primarily Maratha weapons from this recorded point and most examples seen from what I found in searching for info on them. Barry,in my comment on thier use by the Thuggee sect, I think you are right in degree Barry as what I recall on these mysterious murderers and thieves who followed a strange path of belief toward the worship of Kali. They indeed were known to use strangulation to dispatch thier victims, as the spilling of blood was prohibited in this act. While it is unclear how faithfully this was followed, it does seem that the use of the 'tigers claw' was to present the appearance of death by these animals. The thing is that the Thuggee always buried or disposed of thier bodies, and they operated so covertly in these deeds and disposing of evidence that thier very existence was often disputed. There would be no need to feign an animal attack on a victim if the body was likely to be discovered...and in the case of the very thorough Thugs, this would be patently absurd. It is curious however that as I mentioned, I had read somewhere that these most unusual weapons were indeed used by Thuggee, and I finally found the reference. In "Knives and Daggers" (Z. Faktor, Prague, 1989, fig. 221. p.38) it is noted that, '...the characteristic weapon of the Thug sects in Punjab was the bagh nakh or tigers claws, formed by several sharpened hooks connected to a bar". It would seem that the use of these Maratha weapons diffused into the northern regions, and the implication is of course that these sects of Thugs did as well. From what I found on the Thugs, the members of this sect transcended ethnic and religious boundaries and were comprised of Hindu's, Muslims and Sikhs. It would seem that these variations culturally as well as geographically may have had these weapons used by Thugs in the north, but not in the Deccan and southern regions. Whatever the case, and regardless of the outcome in the assessment on the age of these examples, they are intriguing weapons that apparantly have caught the attention of many writers of fiction and adventure as frightening and mysterious weapons. There can be no denying that the innovation of the Indian armourers makes collecting from this vast subcontinent a fascinating adventure in itself! Thank you Lew for sharing these!!! All the best, Jim

23rd June 2011, 07:27 AM	#11
bhushan_lawate Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: India Posts: 77	Hi, Bagh nakhs were a common arsenal in the 16th/17th century and were carried by a group in the armies called "aad hatyari" loosely translated as the group carrying assorted weapons. The other groups being sword bearers, gun bearers, lancemen, men with bow and arrow etc. This was a weapon used to stun by surprise strike to the throat, belly etc. (targeting the muscular parts of the body) Some of these also found application in scaling walls, climbing etc. (however, concrete evidence on this is yet to see the light of the day) Regards, Bhushan

25th June 2011, 03:18 AM	#13
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	The other one showed up today. Construction on the to center claws are the same as the other one but the two smaller claws on the rings are welded so I am leaning towards this being an old piece probably late 1800s?

26th June 2011, 11:16 PM	#14
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Lew, Nice, interesting items .....the rings are placed differently on each Bagh nakh...are they held differently ? Any chance of pictures with them 'in place' on your fingers ? Kind Regards David

27th June 2011, 03:19 AM	#15
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	They are both left handed weapons each ring is a different size to accommodate the index and pinky finger. I will try and take a shot of them and post it later on in the week.