Hunting Charm

Tim Simmons · 20th May 2014, 07:10 PM

Hunting items such as harpoon are in George Cameron Stone { A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms and Armour } so I hope this item is okay to post here. The quarry is hunted with weapons.

Just purchased this Solomon Island Dolphin hunting charm, bought in the UK so it will have some age in terms of Solomon Island artifacts. Try not to think of Dolphins in Western modern ways. The Dolphin hunting was and to some degree still hunting for ocean dolphins. The hunts were seasonal, conducted in singe hull canoes without an outrigger. The hunts required great bravery and success was hard won. Dolphin meat was the only real source of plentiful meat when successful. I like the way the skull has been transformed into a frigate bird and covered in magic symbols.

We are intelligent here and know that in the past things were done differently, so this should not be controversial.

colin henshaw · 20th May 2014, 09:17 PM

An interesting item, I like it. The engraved head reminds me of one of those Easter Island Petroglyph bird-man figures. What makes you think its from the Solomon Islands particularly ?

Tim Simmons · 21st May 2014, 03:32 PM

Best not discuss this at the moment as the seller has another one for sale. I am all spent.

VANDOO · 22nd May 2014, 04:29 PM

THE SPECIAL SIGNIFICENE OF SKULLS TO PRIMATIVE PEOPLES GOES BACK WAY BEFORE HISTORY. THEY HAVE BEEN REVERED AS SACRED OBJECTS OR TOTUMS OR AS HUNTING TROPHIES SHOWING THE STRENGTH OF THE HUNTER OR THE TRIBE. SOME HAVE BEEN DECORATED AND WORN AS COSTUMES DURING CEREMONIES OR PLACED IN PLACES OF HONOR IN THE LODGES OR AROUND THE CAMP. THEY HAVE BEEN PAINTED, DECORATED WITH FIBER , FEATHERS, STONES, SHELLS, AND CARVED, ECT. SOME ARE OVERMODELED WITH CLAY OR RESINS TO LOOK MORE ALIVE AND INSET WITH HAIR, SHELLS ECT. THIS HAS BEEN CUSTOMARY ESPECIALLY IN NEW GUINEA AND SURROUNDING AREAS. SMOKED HEADS AND SHRUNKEN HEADS AS WELL AS BARE SKULLS WERE KEPT IN QUITE A FEW SOCIETYS AROUND THE WORLD FROM ANCIENT TIMES UP UNTIL THE PRESENT IN SOME AREAS.
MOST CARVED SKULLS LIKE THE ONE ABOVE THAT I HAVE SEEN RECENTLY WERE SAID TO HAVE ORIGINATED AROUND BORNEO AND SOME OF THE OTHER ISLANDS, I HAVE SEEN NICELY DONE DEER SKULLS AND ANTLERS CARVED IN BALI. THE BEAR, BUFFALOW, EAGLE AND JAUGUAR SKULLS WERE ESPECIALLY REVERED BY THE TRIBES IN NORTH AND SOUTH AMERICA. IN BORNEO THE HUMAN SKULL AND HORNBILL AND PERHAPS CROCODILE SKULLS HELD THE MOST INPORTANCE. MARINE MAMMALS NO DOUBT HELD SOME SPECIAL IMPORTANCE IN THE SOCIETYS WHO HUNTED THEM AS DID THE SEA TURTLE.
SEVERAL PICTURES OF VARIOUS CARVED SKULLS FOR COMPARASON. WATER BUFFALOW, PIG, MONKEY, ORANGUTAN AND BEAR. TWO EXAMPLES OF THE OVERLAYED SKULLS FROM NEW GUINEA (CROCODILE AND PIG)
THE CARVING ON THE WATER BUFFALOW SKULL LOOKS LIKE BALI WORK MOST OF THE OTHERS LOOK LIKE DAYAK WORK.

VANDOO · 22nd May 2014, 05:10 PM

A FEW MORE EXAMPLES THE CARVING STYLES THEY LOOK LIKE DAYAK, TORAJA AND BALI ON MOST OF THE EXAMPLES I HAVE SHOWN. NOT SURE WHERE TO PLACE THE STYLE ON TIM'S EXAMPLE.
HORNBILL SKULLS ARE SOMETIMES CARVED BY THE DAYAKS OF BORNEO BUT MORE OFTEN THE CASKE AND BILL OF A CERTIAN TYPE OF HORNBILL ARE MADE INTO EAR RINGS OR TAILSMANS WORN ON THE BELT OF THE SWORDS.
SOME HUMAN TROPHY SKULLS WERE CARVED DURING THE HEADHUNTING DAYS BY THE DAYAKS BUT MOST WERE NOT. THIS SET OF PICTURES HAS BEAR, PIG, COW, HORSE, HORNBILL AND HUMAN SKULLS REPRESENTED. NONE OF THESE ARE IN MY COLLECTIONS EXCEPT A COPY OF THE BOOK PICTURED.

THE COW AND HORSE SKULL CARVING COMES CLOSEST TO TIM'S EXAMPLE AND IS LIKELY DONE ON SOME OF THE INDONESIAN ISLANDS LIKELY IN THE VICINITY OF THE CELEBES, TORAJA ECT. LIKELY RELATED TO BUGIS TRIBES MORE THAN DAYAK. JUST A GUESS BASED ON WHAT I HAVE SEEN OVER THE YEARS.

THE SOLOMON ISLANDS IS CLOSE ENOUGH TO THE REGION SO A SIMULAR ART WOULD BE LIKELY.

Tim Simmons · 22nd May 2014, 05:11 PM

Thanks Barry. The fact is this is mine and the topic here. Another being sold should have no bearing on my piece. Sadly I missed the delivery today so we still have the not good light picture. Colin asks a good question, reminding me of child asking why. The trouble with liking the odd stuff is that it can be hard to offer another cataloged example as definitive proof. Also just being a modest
collector and anthropology enthusiast, I am not qualified to make statements that set opinions in a hard state. However this piece does allow me the opportunity to quote that wonderful adage,

if it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, looks like a duck, then it probably is a duck

but seriously the Solomon Islands art is Dolphin, Frigate Bird and Tuna imagery.

The hunts are recorded culture, ritual and magic is there. Here is a very interesting link which takes trouble to highlight that not much is really known about magic involving sea mammal ritual and magic. I do want to stray to far from hunting and hunting weapons and end up a Solomon Islands art discussion.

http://tepapa.govt.nz/SiteCollection...rticle%205.pdf

spiral · 22nd May 2014, 11:26 PM

Yours Looks fresher than the examples posted by Vandoo Tim?

Look forward to Your appraisal when received.

spiral

VANDOO · 23rd May 2014, 05:41 AM

SORRY I ADDED NON REVELANT INFORMATION AND CHANGED THIS POST TO A REFRENCE ON OCEANIC SKULL CARVINGS AND SUCH INSTEAD OF A DISCUSSION OF YOUR ITEM ONLY. IT WAS NOT MY INTENTION TO HIJACK YOUR POST I CAN REMOVE MY POSTS AND PERHAPS START A NEW POST ON THEM AT A LATER DATE IF YOU WISH.

David · 23rd May 2014, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

IT WAS NOT MY INTENTION TO HIJACK YOUR POST I CAN REMOVE MY POSTS AND PERHAPS START A NEW POST ON THEM AT A LATER DATE IF YOU WISH.

Barry, while i personally find this stuff fascinating i am not convinced that it really has a place for discussion on these forums. Even Tim's original item seems a bit off the beam to me.

colin henshaw · 23rd May 2014, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Thanks Barry. The fact is this is mine and the topic here. Another being sold should have no bearing on my piece. Sadly I missed the delivery today so we still have the not good light picture. Colin asks a good question, reminding me of child asking why. The trouble with liking the odd stuff is that it can be hard to offer another cataloged example as definitive proof. Also just being a modest
collector and anthropology enthusiast, I am not qualified to make statements that set opinions in a hard state. However this piece does allow me the opportunity to quote that wonderful adage,

if it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, looks like a duck, then it probably is a duck

but seriously the Solomon Islands art is Dolphin, Frigate Bird and Tuna imagery.

The hunts are recorded culture, ritual and magic is there. Here is a very interesting link which takes trouble to highlight that not much is really known about magic involving sea mammal ritual and magic. I do want to stray to far from hunting and hunting weapons and end up a Solomon Islands art discussion.

http://tepapa.govt.nz/SiteCollection...rticle%205.pdf

Without any clear evidence, this item can't be described as a "Solomon Islands dolphin hunting charm". Whilst interesting, the piece doesn't, from the picture, seem to have much age. Could be something produced for selling, maybe not even in the Solomon Islands...

Robert · 25th May 2014, 02:33 AM

Tim, Being that the main focus of this posting is not truly weapon related I am afraid no matter how interesting I am going to close this thread from further discussion.

Robert

Robert · 29th May 2014, 02:08 PM

Hello,Tim, Now that we have the proper forum this thread is now open again for further discussion.

Robert

20th May 2014, 07:10 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Hunting Charm Hunting items such as harpoon are in George Cameron Stone { A Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms and Armour } so I hope this item is okay to post here. The quarry is hunted with weapons. Just purchased this Solomon Island Dolphin hunting charm, bought in the UK so it will have some age in terms of Solomon Island artifacts. Try not to think of Dolphins in Western modern ways. The Dolphin hunting was and to some degree still hunting for ocean dolphins. The hunts were seasonal, conducted in singe hull canoes without an outrigger. The hunts required great bravery and success was hard won. Dolphin meat was the only real source of plentiful meat when successful. I like the way the skull has been transformed into a frigate bird and covered in magic symbols. We are intelligent here and know that in the past things were done differently, so this should not be controversial. Attached Images

22nd May 2014, 04:29 PM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE SPECIAL SIGNIFICENE OF SKULLS TO PRIMATIVE PEOPLES GOES BACK WAY BEFORE HISTORY. THEY HAVE BEEN REVERED AS SACRED OBJECTS OR TOTUMS OR AS HUNTING TROPHIES SHOWING THE STRENGTH OF THE HUNTER OR THE TRIBE. SOME HAVE BEEN DECORATED AND WORN AS COSTUMES DURING CEREMONIES OR PLACED IN PLACES OF HONOR IN THE LODGES OR AROUND THE CAMP. THEY HAVE BEEN PAINTED, DECORATED WITH FIBER , FEATHERS, STONES, SHELLS, AND CARVED, ECT. SOME ARE OVERMODELED WITH CLAY OR RESINS TO LOOK MORE ALIVE AND INSET WITH HAIR, SHELLS ECT. THIS HAS BEEN CUSTOMARY ESPECIALLY IN NEW GUINEA AND SURROUNDING AREAS. SMOKED HEADS AND SHRUNKEN HEADS AS WELL AS BARE SKULLS WERE KEPT IN QUITE A FEW SOCIETYS AROUND THE WORLD FROM ANCIENT TIMES UP UNTIL THE PRESENT IN SOME AREAS. MOST CARVED SKULLS LIKE THE ONE ABOVE THAT I HAVE SEEN RECENTLY WERE SAID TO HAVE ORIGINATED AROUND BORNEO AND SOME OF THE OTHER ISLANDS, I HAVE SEEN NICELY DONE DEER SKULLS AND ANTLERS CARVED IN BALI. THE BEAR, BUFFALOW, EAGLE AND JAUGUAR SKULLS WERE ESPECIALLY REVERED BY THE TRIBES IN NORTH AND SOUTH AMERICA. IN BORNEO THE HUMAN SKULL AND HORNBILL AND PERHAPS CROCODILE SKULLS HELD THE MOST INPORTANCE. MARINE MAMMALS NO DOUBT HELD SOME SPECIAL IMPORTANCE IN THE SOCIETYS WHO HUNTED THEM AS DID THE SEA TURTLE. SEVERAL PICTURES OF VARIOUS CARVED SKULLS FOR COMPARASON. WATER BUFFALOW, PIG, MONKEY, ORANGUTAN AND BEAR. TWO EXAMPLES OF THE OVERLAYED SKULLS FROM NEW GUINEA (CROCODILE AND PIG) THE CARVING ON THE WATER BUFFALOW SKULL LOOKS LIKE BALI WORK MOST OF THE OTHERS LOOK LIKE DAYAK WORK. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 22nd May 2014 at 05:25 PM.

22nd May 2014, 05:10 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A FEW MORE EXAMPLES THE CARVING STYLES THEY LOOK LIKE DAYAK, TORAJA AND BALI ON MOST OF THE EXAMPLES I HAVE SHOWN. NOT SURE WHERE TO PLACE THE STYLE ON TIM'S EXAMPLE. HORNBILL SKULLS ARE SOMETIMES CARVED BY THE DAYAKS OF BORNEO BUT MORE OFTEN THE CASKE AND BILL OF A CERTIAN TYPE OF HORNBILL ARE MADE INTO EAR RINGS OR TAILSMANS WORN ON THE BELT OF THE SWORDS. SOME HUMAN TROPHY SKULLS WERE CARVED DURING THE HEADHUNTING DAYS BY THE DAYAKS BUT MOST WERE NOT. THIS SET OF PICTURES HAS BEAR, PIG, COW, HORSE, HORNBILL AND HUMAN SKULLS REPRESENTED. NONE OF THESE ARE IN MY COLLECTIONS EXCEPT A COPY OF THE BOOK PICTURED. THE COW AND HORSE SKULL CARVING COMES CLOSEST TO TIM'S EXAMPLE AND IS LIKELY DONE ON SOME OF THE INDONESIAN ISLANDS LIKELY IN THE VICINITY OF THE CELEBES, TORAJA ECT. LIKELY RELATED TO BUGIS TRIBES MORE THAN DAYAK. JUST A GUESS BASED ON WHAT I HAVE SEEN OVER THE YEARS. THE SOLOMON ISLANDS IS CLOSE ENOUGH TO THE REGION SO A SIMULAR ART WOULD BE LIKELY. Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 22nd May 2014 at 05:23 PM.

20th May 2014, 09:17 PM	#2
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	An interesting item, I like it. The engraved head reminds me of one of those Easter Island Petroglyph bird-man figures. What makes you think its from the Solomon Islands particularly ?

21st May 2014, 03:32 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Best not discuss this at the moment as the seller has another one for sale. I am all spent.

22nd May 2014, 05:11 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Thanks Barry. The fact is this is mine and the topic here. Another being sold should have no bearing on my piece. Sadly I missed the delivery today so we still have the not good light picture. Colin asks a good question, reminding me of child asking why. The trouble with liking the odd stuff is that it can be hard to offer another cataloged example as definitive proof. Also just being a modest collector and anthropology enthusiast, I am not qualified to make statements that set opinions in a hard state. However this piece does allow me the opportunity to quote that wonderful adage, if it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, looks like a duck, then it probably is a duck but seriously the Solomon Islands art is Dolphin, Frigate Bird and Tuna imagery. The hunts are recorded culture, ritual and magic is there. Here is a very interesting link which takes trouble to highlight that not much is really known about magic involving sea mammal ritual and magic. I do want to stray to far from hunting and hunting weapons and end up a Solomon Islands art discussion. http://tepapa.govt.nz/SiteCollection...rticle%205.pdf

22nd May 2014, 11:26 PM	#7
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Yours Looks fresher than the examples posted by Vandoo Tim? Look forward to Your appraisal when received. spiral

23rd May 2014, 05:41 AM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	SORRY I ADDED NON REVELANT INFORMATION AND CHANGED THIS POST TO A REFRENCE ON OCEANIC SKULL CARVINGS AND SUCH INSTEAD OF A DISCUSSION OF YOUR ITEM ONLY. IT WAS NOT MY INTENTION TO HIJACK YOUR POST I CAN REMOVE MY POSTS AND PERHAPS START A NEW POST ON THEM AT A LATER DATE IF YOU WISH.

25th May 2014, 02:33 AM	#11
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Tim, Being that the main focus of this posting is not truly weapon related I am afraid no matter how interesting I am going to close this thread from further discussion. Robert

29th May 2014, 02:08 PM	#12
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Hello,Tim, Now that we have the proper forum this thread is now open again for further discussion. Robert