Faca De Ponta.

[Atlantia]

Does anyone have information on the very large Faca De Ponta carried in the late 19th/early 20th century?
Pictures of examples would be very helpful.
Thanks
Gene

[Lew]

http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/facon/criollo.html

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/printthread.php?t=13402

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Lew

http://www.vikingsword.com/ethsword/facon/criollo.html

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/printthread.php?t=13402

Ello Lew,

Not those mate, the really BIG ones that the bandits like Lampiao carried.
The 2' long almost shortsword sized ones

I can't seem to find any info on them?

Best
gene

[Atlantia]

Hi all.
This is the type I'm interested in:

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi all.
This is the type I'm interested in:

Gene,

I am sure Chris will be able to chime in and at least offer some direction.

Gav

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Gene,

I am sure Chris will be able to chime in and at least offer some direction.

Gav

Gav,
thanks for coming into this. You have a wealth of experience of more and varied weapons than most of us. Do you see many of these 'giant' knives?

Best
gene

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Gav,
thanks for coming into this. You have a wealth of experience of more and varied weapons than most of us. Do you see many of these 'giant' knives?

Best
gene

Hi Gene,

I have only ever seen two and also a single photo image here on the site, attached to a Navaja thread....from memory, don't quote me on this...I'll have a dig and see what surfaces.

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

This is the image I remember...close but much the same as the larger ones in Lew's first link... there are several other rustic knives of this size under the Gaucho search.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...knife+fighting

Gav

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by freebooter

This is the image I remember...close but much the same as the larger ones in Lew's first link... there are several other rustic knives of this size under the Gaucho search.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...knife+fighting

Gav

Hi Gav,

I'm after the specific Brazilian (I think) ones.
Like this one of mine, just vastly larger!


Unlike this one, I believe they often have bands in the silver hilt (like a giant centipede)

[blacklacrau]

Try this...

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11894

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by blacklacrau

Try this...

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11894

Hi Blacklacrau,
Thanks for coming in on this

The small ones I'm fairly conversent with. I've now got a couple and regularly see the little souvenier ones for sale.
I'm after information and examples of the large fighting ones carried by the bandits Like these in the clip posted by Chris in the other thread.
Have a look at the clip, you can see they are of this sort of size (around 60cm/2'):


Thanks again
Gene

[blacklacrau]

The material of the hilt was horn, bone, ivory (provinientes of billiard balls), silver, brass and many others.
The daggers of the outlaws were made only to kill helpless victims, kneeling. The outlaws pierced between the clavicle and neck reaching into the heart, sometimes going through to the backs.
The daggers were piercing weapons only, with no cutting edge along the blade.
The higher the prestige and importance of the bandit his biggest dagger, conseqentemente was the biggest dagger Lampião that was about 87cm.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by blacklacrau

The material of the hilt was horn, bone, ivory (provinientes of billiard balls), silver, brass and many others.
The daggers of the outlaws were made only to kill helpless victims, kneeling. The outlaws pierced between the clavicle and neck reaching into the heart, sometimes going through to the backs.
The daggers were piercing weapons only, with no cutting edge along the blade.
The higher the prestige and importance of the bandit his biggest dagger, conseqentemente was the biggest dagger Lampião that was about 87cm.

87CM!
That really is sword sized!
Your description of their use is certainly enlightening, how awful!!!
Did only bandits carry large ones?
How would you categorise the one in my last post at 60cm long?

Thank you again
Gene

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Gene,

I am sure Chris will be able to chime in and at least offer some direction.

Gav

Gav,

Sadly no. I do not speak Portuguese and because of thus I know little of their knife lore, save a bit that pertains to the southern parts of that wonderful country, where their blade culture resembles that of Uruguay and Argentina.

Gene,

The Argentineans also had such very long facons, invariably made from a discarded sword blade and were known as saddle facons as they were carried pinned under the gaucho's saddle. They fell into disuse and in all probability were originally used as slaughtering tools of wild cattle, though no doubt they also did double duty as weapons, when required. They were considered too cumbersome to be carried in the traditional way, though many gauchos tucked 60cm blades into their belts at the small of the back.

Cheers
Chris

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Gav,

Sadly no. I do not speak Portuguese and because of thus I know little of their knife lore, save a bit that pertains to the southern parts of that wonderful country, where their blade culture resembles that of Uruguay and Argentina.

Gene,

The Argentineans also had such very long facons, invariably made from a discarded sword blade and were known as saddle facons as they were carried pinned under the gaucho's saddle. They fell into disuse and in all probability were originally used as slaughtering tools of wild cattle, though no doubt they also did double duty as weapons, when required. They were considered too cumbersome to be carried in the traditional way, though many gauchos tucked 60cm blades into their belts at the small of the back.

Cheers
Chris

Thanks Chris,
As a collector of the gaucho field, do you see many of these giant Brazilian ones?

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Thanks Chris,
As a collector of the gaucho field, do you see many of these giant Brazilian ones?

No, only on the internet, when they come up for sale or discussion.

Cheers
Chris

[Atlantia]

Seems like this will only be of interest to a few.....
My research continues, so I thought I'd share it with y'all.




And another of the outlaws blades (allegedly of one of the leaders):




If any of the lurkers reading this have any interesting information, I can be emailed at: gimmieitbaby@aol.com

[Atlantia]

Here's some better pictures of a large one of mine (ooo-err).

I assume from my limited understanding that it was the property of an outlaw?

It's future is uncertain, not that I think that'll affect anything as this thread is hardly awash with replies

[Chris Evans]

Hi Gene,

You are doing great work - Keep it up. I for one, am extremely interested with your findings.

This is one form of ethnic bladeware that has received very little international attention.

Cheers
Chris

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Hi Gene,

You are doing great work - Keep it up. I for one, am extremely interested with your findings.

This is one form of ethnic bladeware that has received very little international attention.

Cheers
Chris

Thanks Chris, I'll add more tomorrow,
Any thoughts on the large one of mine?

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Thanks Chris, I'll add more tomorrow,
Any thoughts on the large one of mine?

Gene,

I feel it has many good visual aspects and appears to be a late 19th century piece.

It is a great looking piece and worth keeping, I know I would.

Gav

[Chris Evans]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Thanks Chris, I'll add more tomorrow,
Any thoughts on the large one of mine?

Any signs of repeated sharpening and nicks on the edge?

Other than this, as Gav said +1

Cheers
Chris

[Atlantia]

Gav and Chris

Thanks guys. I'm glad my efforts are of interest.
I'm going to add some interesting things I've found, so please 'stay tuned'.

The large one shows lots of use on the blade, sharpening, pitting, cleaning etc. It's had 'a life'.

Firstly here is a picture to illustrate the relative sizes of these weapons.



Secondly, I'm going to add some of the information I've found.
Although I'm only really interested in the knives, it's interwoven with the outlaws.
It seems that Lampiao especially has achieved an almost 'hero' status in Brazil.
It is of course not uncommon for outlaws to be remembered in this way ('Robin Hood' syndrome), but in Lampiao's case it seems that he did little to deserve his cult status, as he and his 'band' were ruthless, sadistic, cruel mass murderers. Reading about his exploits (crimes), it's difficult to imagine feeling an emotion other than loathing for him.

That in mind, it's perhaps easier to understand why his richly deserved death was followed by the public display of his and some of his comrades heads for decades after the event.

The picture of this 'display' is relevant to this subject as the outlaws knives were dsplayed with them.
So, I will add the picture below and as I don't like suprises of a graphic nature, I warn readers now!!
There we go. The intro is over.

[Atlantia]

Here is an interesting article on the outlaws.
If anyone can translate the relevant parts it would be useful. I've tried typing it out and using babelfish, but the meaning seems to get lost in translation.

[Atlantia]

Here is the wiki page on Lamiao

Here is the graphic display of his and some of his comrades heads, with their regalia (parental guidance is advised):



Here is a translated description of the useage of these knives:

(By: Jose Romero Araújo Cardoso)

Bleeding was one of the most heinous crimes committed in the northeastern hinterland at the time of highwaymen, practiced by both flywheels troops, which had "bleeders official", for outlaws.

Symbol of a culture forged by colonization erected under the stress of force and violence, responsible for the extermination of the Indians who inhabited the hinterland, the "technique" of bleeding was the most improved. The economic rationale of the inland penetration required that cattle raised in order to be ultra-extensive necessarily slaughtered for consumption by a privileged minority of the population, especially the coastal sugarcane. In the hinterland, became a "master work" kill bleeding the jugular or the carotid artery.

The two carotid arteries are the common right and left common, and the right common originates in the brachiocephalic trunk and left common originate from the aortic arch. The rupture of these arteries means certain death. Bleeding violent towards arterial blood flow to the aorta takes care of everything.

When the soldier John of the "stain", regarded even by his former fellow soldiers, as a psychotic, fancy wheels paraibanas bleeder forces, broke with a knife belonging to the doctor Luiz de Goes, the carotid Attorney John Dantas, killer President Joao Pessoa, when his detention in prison of Recife (PE).

João Dantas was arrested in the company of brother-engineer Augusto Caldas, also murdered with the same trick. The "service" was done by a professional macabre who knew her "craft". The military knew where he would break the millimeter artery, whereas the struggle waged between the body intrepid lawyer Joao Dantas and his executioners prevented sectioning at the exact spot as he wished to Dr. Luiz de Góes. As Arruda, only someone who was deeply in touch with the "art" of bleed could have done a "work" with such perfection.

The jugular veins, others who were also preferred by the "bleeders" from fighting the highwaymen Northeast, are of extreme importance for the organism. At the break it is almost impossible to be no possibility of salvation, unless there is reversal of modern techniques such as the presence of doctors and hospital, virtually nonexistent in the wild hinterlands of the forgotten past, though even today we find this situation in several places throughout the northeast and throughout Brazil.

Involvement of the brachiocephalic vein, there was little chance of living victims of this gruesome ordeal promoted by soldiers and bandits in the hinterland of the highwaymen, especially when the summit of Lantern. This vein is anastomisa with the right brachiocephalic vein, forming the superior vena cava, is crucial to sustaining life.

Lampiao was expert in this technique, and has therefore immense dagger blade two feet. Seasoned deals in the field, especially with regard to livestock, hides and skins providing the "Colonel" Delmiro Gouveia, who negotiated the Ferreira family, the "king of the highwaymen" innovated and used it profusely when his leadership in banditry (1922 - 1938).

The external jugular vein, when broken, is certain death. This vein is composed of the junction with retromandibular vein posterior auricular vein, and after several stages of great importance, will lead more frequently in the subclavian vein.

According to Colonel Manuel Alvarez de Assis (photo below) on whom there are historical records indelible and marked by an extraordinary way the story of the struggles of the people of the semi-arid in the first decades of the past century, another method widely used by both parties in fights, was to pierce the clavicle, introducing yourself, with violence, the instrument-forceful drill directly into the aorta near the heart.

After the carnage of Piancó (CP), which occurred in February of 1926, whose share of the old warrior of the hosts of wheels, a native of the municipality of Pombal (CP), and striking out decisively, there was a column of military lockups Prestes, as well as the cook of the militia who preached a new direction. Bahia was one known among the rebels by Aunt Mary. Only one escaped the sad fate, due to calls from many in the backcountry, including the Padre Cicero.

As yet the interviewee, a prisoner of bleeding when the military led by Colonel Elysium Sobreira, said he had made it a lot when the march of the column, among the many battles that crashed.

Also in Piancó (CP), Alvarez recalled the massacre of barrie, which killed the Father Aristides Ferreira and several comrades who battled bravely to try to halt the column. All were bled by members of the column, dismayed by the deaths of cavalrymen who formed the vanguard of the column Miguel - Prestes, who arrived in the city of Piancó (PB), and ended targeted by the expert marksmanship of Sergeant Manuel Alvarez then of Assisi.




Brutal times indeed.


For those who can read the original Portugese, the text may be clearer:

"O sangramento era um dos crimes mais hediondos cometido no sertão nordestino no tempo do cangaço, praticado tanto por tropas volantes, as quais dispunham de "sangradores oficiais", como por cangaceiros.
Símbolo de uma cultura forjada pela colonização erigida sob a ênfase da força e da violência, responsável pelo extermínio dos índios que habitavam a hinterlândia, a "técnica" de sangramento foi aperfeiçoada ao máximo. A razão econômica da penetração interiorana exigia que o gado criado de forma ultra-extensiva fosse, necessariamente, abatido para o consumo de uma minoria privilegiada da população, principalmente a do litoral canavieiro. No sertão, se tornou um "trabalho de mestre" matar sangrando a jugular ou a carótida.

As carótidas são duas artérias, a comum direita e a comum esquerda, sendo que a comum direita é originária do tronco braquiocefálico e a comum esquerda é originária do arco aórtico. A ruptura dessas artérias significa morte certa. A hemorragia violenta na via arterial do fluxo de sangue da aorta se encarrega de tudo.

Quando o soldado João da "mancha", considerado inclusive por seus antigos colegas de farda, como um psicótico, extravagante sangrador das forças volantes paraibanas, rompeu, com um bisturi pertencente ao medico Luiz de Góes, a carótida do advogado João Dantas, assassino do presidente João Pessoa, quando de sua detenção na penitenciária do Recife (PE).


João Dantas estava preso na companhia do cunhado, o engenheiro Augusto Caldas, também assassinado com a mesma "técnica". O "serviço" fora feito por um profissional macabro que conhecia muito bem o seu "ofício". O militar sabia milimetricamente onde iria romper a artéria, visto que a luta corporal travada entre o intrépido advogado João Dantas e os seus algozes impediu o seccionamento no ponto exato, como pretendia Dr. Luiz de Góes. Conforme Arruda, só alguém que estava profundamente em contato com a "arte" de sangrar poderia ter feito um "trabalho" com tamanha perfeição.

As veias jugulares, outras que também eram preferidas pelos "sangradores" das lutas do cangaço nordestino, são de extrema importância para o organismo. A veia jugular interna é a principal. Ao rompê-la é quase impossível de haver qualquer possibilidade de salvação, a não ser que haja modernas técnicas de reversão, como presença de médicos e hospital, praticamente inexistentes nos ermos esquecidos dos sertões de outrora, embora ainda hoje encontremos tal situação em diversos lugares espalhados pelo nordeste e pelo Brasil afora.

Com o comprometimento da veia braquiocefálica, poucas chances de vida havia às vítimas desse suplício macabro promovido por solados e bandidos no sertão do cangaço, principalmente quando do apogeu de Lampião. Essa veia se anastomisa com a veia braquiocefálica direita, formando a veia cava superior, de fundamental importância à manutenção da vida.

Lampião era expert nesta técnica, dispondo para isso de imenso punhal de setenta centímetros de lâmina. Tarimbado na lida do campo, sobretudo no que diz respeito à pecuária, fornecendo peles e couros ao "Coronel" Delmiro Gouveia, com quem a família Ferreira negociava, o "rei do cangaço" inovou e utilizou-a profusamente quando de sua chefia no cangaço (1922 - 1938).

A veia jugular externa, quando rompida, representa morte certa. Essa veia é constituída da junção da veia retromandibular com a veia auricular posterior, e, após vários estágios de grande importância, desembocará, mais freqüentemente, na veia subclávia.

Segundo o Coronel Manuel Arruda de Assis, (Foto abaixo) sobre quem há registros históricos indeléveis, tendo marcado de forma extraordinária a história das lutas do povo do semi-árido nas primeiras décadas do passado século, outro método bastante utilizado por ambas as partes envolvidas nas lutas, consistia em perfurar a clavícula, introduzindo-se, com violência, o instrumento perfuro-contudente diretamente na aorta, junto ao coração.

Depois da hecatombe de Piancó (PB), ocorrida no mês de fevereiro do ano de 1926, cuja participação do velho guerreiro das hostes volantes, natural do município de Pombal (PB), fora decisiva e marcante, houve aprisionamentos de militares da coluna Prestes, bem como da cozinheira da milícia que pregava novos rumos. Era uma baiana conhecida entre os revoltosos por tia Maria. Apenas um escapou da triste sina, devido aos apelos de muitos no sertão, inclusive do Padre Cícero.

Conforme ainda o entrevistado, um prisioneiro quando do sangramento pelos militares comandados pelo Coronel Elísio Sobreira, revelou ter feito muito isso quando da marcha da coluna, entre os diversos combates que travou.

Ainda em Piancó (PB), Arruda relembrou a chacina do barreiro, a qual vitimou o Padre Aristides Ferreira e diversos camaradas que lutaram bravamente para tentar conter o avanço da coluna. Todos foram sangrados por membros da coluna, consternados com as mortes dos cavalarianos que formavam a vanguarda da Coluna Miguel Costa - Prestes, os quais chegavam na cidade de Piancó (PB), e terminaram alvejados pela pontaria certeira do então sargento Manuel Arruda de Assis."

[Gavin Nugent]

Awesome Gene!!

Thanks for bringing to light aspects of knives I have seen but never fully understood!! Great reference research that I can imagine wasn't easy to find.

Outstanding!!

Gav

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Awesome Gene!!

Thanks for bringing to light aspects of knives I have seen but never fully understood!! Great reference research that I can imagine wasn't easy to find.

Outstanding!!

Gav

Thank you Gav.

As you can see from the online translation, my Portugese is nonexistant.
That certainly doesn't help.

There are still aspects of them that need clarification.
For example:

These obviously come in various 'types' and as this information isn't available in one place here' I'm going to try for a basic overview here in one place for clarity.

You have the usually smaller semi-familiar 'national knife/souvenier' types, often with plated blades and mottos etched onto them etc.
These come in at least two 'forms' with crossguard and usually plated blade, and guardless.
Here is one of our own members blades (was Nandos, think he sold it). The mottos vary, I've also seen 'The High Life' (in English!).



Here is one belonging to our own kronckew. looks to be of good quality. Notice that it is of more traditional form with no guard etc.



Then there are the older ones with imported blades of good quality and slightly larger 'dagger' size.
For this I (again) present mine (next to a kitchen knife for scale).
My research and gut feeling is that it dates to the late 19th or early 20th. Certainly I can't see it being any later than mid 1930s.



There are also older ones of 'dagger' size, but with a more 'Brazilian' handmade look to them. These have a range of blades like Gaucho knives from Argentina etc. Everything from imported blades, to locally made and reused sabre sections. Different qualities, all rather attractive.




Finally, you get these giant 2ft (and in Lampaio's case longer) versions.
Here again, next to the smaller version to show just how huge it is!



So, the question is, who used what?
Are the giants exclusive to the outlaws?

[Atlantia]

It's said that the distinctive banding on the hilts of some of these daggers was inspired by the giant brazilian millipedes known as 'embuá' (lice snake)

[Atlantia]

There muct be Brazilian members who can help us out with more detail?

Or even just Portugese speakers?

Lurkers too! If you can add to our knowledge then feel free to email me at: gimmieitbaby@aol.com

[Chris Evans]

Hi Gene,

Originally Posted by Atlantia

So, the question is, who used what?
Are the giants exclusive to the outlaws?

First, a big thank you for publishing all this terrific work on a very little known subject.

I think that to answer to your question we must first look into the agricultural and slaughtering/butchering practices of the region. Given the by the then strong proliferation of firearms, these huge knives must have had some utilitarian application; I read somewhere that they were known not as faca de ponta, rather as fish butchering knives, but I haven't had the time to follow this up.

Also, as blacklacrau said, they probably were status symbols too, much like officers swords are in modern times. I think it is fair to say that the absence of a handguard suggests that these were not intended for serious fighting, rather to facilitate carriage. The gaucho saddle facons often had full size sword blades but rarely a handguard; Now why would a weapon be stripped of such a valuable feature? IMHO because ease of carriage was the first concern and they were not intended to be weapons, rather slaughtering tools. In contrast, the shorter and nimbler fighting grade facons were often fitted with cross guards.

Cheers
Chris