Keris Batak with strange blade?

VVV · 26th January 2011, 07:28 AM

I found this keris in a Toba Batak dress.
It's quite rare but there is one resembling in Leiden.
BUT the blade seems quite odd to me. The one in Leiden has the
more common Panjang-blade but this one is much sturdier and
resembles an elongated Palembang(?) -blade to me.
I have noticed that some other longer blades, that doesn't have
the Bahari/Panjang-shape,has been labeled Bangkinang at this forum?

I look forward to your feedback?

Michael

Sajen · 26th January 2011, 11:11 AM

Hello Michael,

OMG, you get every time the most curious pieces!

When someone other will post this keris I will believe it is a composed piece but what I can see from the pictures it is all typical Batak work apart from the blade. How fit the blade inside the sheath? The blade have a strong balinese/lombok touch in my humble opinion but more slender than normal. I am very curious what others will say about this keris.

Regards,

Detlef

Battara · 26th January 2011, 04:58 PM

I agree with you Sajen. This is a composite piece to me. The Batak did not originally have much access to silver if I understand right nor did they make keris. Very nice though.

Sajen · 26th January 2011, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I agree with you Sajen. This is a composite piece to me. The Batak did not originally have much access to silver if I understand right nor did they make keris. Very nice though.

Hello Jose,
I think that they have had access to silver; many Kalasan or other batak things have silver parts so far I know but it's correct that they don't have a own "Keris culture" what don't mean that they have used in exceptional cases keris blades from other islands and dressed them in sui generis. The keris from Michael don't look recent to my eyes neither the sarung nor the blade. So it's good possible that this a old "composite piece".

Below two pictures of recently sold Batak swords with silver work.

Regards,

Detlef

VVV · 26th January 2011, 06:48 PM

Hi Detlef and Jose,

Thanks for your input.
Actually I was more curious on opinions on the blade than on the dress.
The dress is made for the keris blade. I can force down the blade more into it
but all horn and ivory scabbards shrink a bit here in Scandinavia so I prefer not to.
As Detlef wrote silver, as well as brass and suassa, is quite usual on Batak weapons.
Here is a reference picture from Leiden of a resembling keris. The Batak culture wasn't very closed.
But usually if they wore keris it was from other cultures, like the Minang Bahari,
not locally pimped like mine or the one in Leiden. And Jose is correct, they didn't make keris themeselves.

Any more opinions on the blade?

Michael

Gustav · 26th January 2011, 09:46 PM

At first, I am not able to have and give any substantial oppinion on a blade, these are just my thoughts, when I see it.

There is a high-end cousin of this blade, which was showed in the forum some while ago, which also is Sumatran.

For me, when I see a high quality older blade, it is possible to see the differences (becouse of fine worked features, which are typical for a certain region and period of time) and also the similarities, which probably could lead back to some older (late Majapahit?) standard. With a simpler, not "capital-court" quality blade, the fine are not worked out or become somewhat blurred, like somehow, who just repeats the superficial appearing without knowing the structure. So the lover quality blades from different regions are sometimes much more similar in my eyes.

Why one finds itself remembered on Bali/Lombok blades is, becouse of the smooth surface, yet also, more typical for Lombok blades, becouse of the exagerated ricikan elements done in medium workmanship, imitating a dhapur, which would be expected to be reseved for a high-end keris.

This surely is a keris coming from periphery of keris culture, and it comes in dress of a distant Sumatran region. This would fit together.

Amuk Murugul · 26th January 2011, 09:51 PM

Hullo everybody,

To me, it's definitely not a Bangkinang. It looks more like something from eastern Java, Bali or Lombok; somewhere in that area.

Best,

Sajen · 26th January 2011, 10:33 PM

Hello Gustav,

I hope that it is ok to use your picture. I have scrolled up and down to see the similaritys between the both blades, so I want to see them near together.

Regards,

Detlef

BluErf · 26th January 2011, 11:05 PM

Interesting! How long is the blade, Michael?

Blade does look Sumatran, and it doesn't look artificially aged to me. Dress looks like Batak work to me too, though I wld say I'm also seeing a lot of newish looking Batak weapons these days with black(ened) wood sheath, silver work (including flattened "fish egg" or wire filigree work, and black rusted blades. So there could be people in the Batak region doing new work. But again, that's my doubt on the dress. The blade does not look new, unless of course the "keris factories" today have reached new heights in creating that natural aged look (hope not!!).

BluErf · 26th January 2011, 11:06 PM

Incidentally, the other blade shown here also belongs to you, Michael?

I remember it was a Sumatran keris. Minang area, if I'm not wrong.

Gustav · 27th January 2011, 01:16 AM

The thing, which I really don't understand is the joint between wrongko and gandar. This let me think of a kind of some kind of compromise or workaround: the sorts of material and the upper silver band are put together in the most peculiar possible configuration.

As I understand, the wrongko is made from horn?

kai · 27th January 2011, 08:45 AM

Very neat piece, Michael!

Could you please share dimensions?

I guess the hilt is not removable?

Thanks!

Regards,
Kai

VVV · 27th January 2011, 09:40 AM

Thanks for all comments!

Here are some more answers to your questions:
The blade is 47,5 cm (my resembling Minang that Gustav posted is 39 cm).
The reason that they are hanging next to each other at my Sumatran keris wall
is maybe why I didn't think of Lombok/Bali blades first?
The wrangka is made of horn and now when you bring it up, Gustav,
it really is a strange way of doing it? I checked the silver band but it has
never been closer to the joint.
Unfortunately the hilt isn't removable.
There has been souvenir production going on among the Batak for over
100 years old so it's always tricky with stuff from that area.
But I haven't seen that many Batak keris like mine flooding the market.
And this one, like the one in Leiden, has been in Europe for a long time
so it's not anything made up recently.

Michael

26th January 2011, 07:28 AM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Keris Batak with strange blade? I found this keris in a Toba Batak dress. It's quite rare but there is one resembling in Leiden. BUT the blade seems quite odd to me. The one in Leiden has the more common Panjang-blade but this one is much sturdier and resembles an elongated Palembang(?) -blade to me. I have noticed that some other longer blades, that doesn't have the Bahari/Panjang-shape,has been labeled Bangkinang at this forum? I look forward to your feedback? Michael Attached Images

26th January 2011, 06:48 PM	#5
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Hi Detlef and Jose, Thanks for your input. Actually I was more curious on opinions on the blade than on the dress. The dress is made for the keris blade. I can force down the blade more into it but all horn and ivory scabbards shrink a bit here in Scandinavia so I prefer not to. As Detlef wrote silver, as well as brass and suassa, is quite usual on Batak weapons. Here is a reference picture from Leiden of a resembling keris. The Batak culture wasn't very closed. But usually if they wore keris it was from other cultures, like the Minang Bahari, not locally pimped like mine or the one in Leiden. And Jose is correct, they didn't make keris themeselves. Any more opinions on the blade? Michael Attached Images

26th January 2011, 09:46 PM	#6
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,247	At first, I am not able to have and give any substantial oppinion on a blade, these are just my thoughts, when I see it. There is a high-end cousin of this blade, which was showed in the forum some while ago, which also is Sumatran. For me, when I see a high quality older blade, it is possible to see the differences (becouse of fine worked features, which are typical for a certain region and period of time) and also the similarities, which probably could lead back to some older (late Majapahit?) standard. With a simpler, not "capital-court" quality blade, the fine are not worked out or become somewhat blurred, like somehow, who just repeats the superficial appearing without knowing the structure. So the lover quality blades from different regions are sometimes much more similar in my eyes. Why one finds itself remembered on Bali/Lombok blades is, becouse of the smooth surface, yet also, more typical for Lombok blades, becouse of the exagerated ricikan elements done in medium workmanship, imitating a dhapur, which would be expected to be reseved for a high-end keris. This surely is a keris coming from periphery of keris culture, and it comes in dress of a distant Sumatran region. This would fit together. Attached Images

26th January 2011, 10:33 PM	#8
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,770	Hello Gustav, I hope that it is ok to use your picture. I have scrolled up and down to see the similaritys between the both blades, so I want to see them near together. Regards, Detlef Attached Images

26th January 2011, 11:11 AM	#2
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,770	Hello Michael, OMG, you get every time the most curious pieces! When someone other will post this keris I will believe it is a composed piece but what I can see from the pictures it is all typical Batak work apart from the blade. How fit the blade inside the sheath? The blade have a strong balinese/lombok touch in my humble opinion but more slender than normal. I am very curious what others will say about this keris. Regards, Detlef

26th January 2011, 04:58 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I agree with you Sajen. This is a composite piece to me. The Batak did not originally have much access to silver if I understand right nor did they make keris. Very nice though.

26th January 2011, 09:51 PM	#7
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 460	Hullo everybody, To me, it's definitely not a Bangkinang. It looks more like something from eastern Java, Bali or Lombok; somewhere in that area. Best,

26th January 2011, 11:05 PM	#9
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Interesting! How long is the blade, Michael? Blade does look Sumatran, and it doesn't look artificially aged to me. Dress looks like Batak work to me too, though I wld say I'm also seeing a lot of newish looking Batak weapons these days with black(ened) wood sheath, silver work (including flattened "fish egg" or wire filigree work, and black rusted blades. So there could be people in the Batak region doing new work. But again, that's my doubt on the dress. The blade does not look new, unless of course the "keris factories" today have reached new heights in creating that natural aged look (hope not!!).

26th January 2011, 11:06 PM	#10
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Incidentally, the other blade shown here also belongs to you, Michael? I remember it was a Sumatran keris. Minang area, if I'm not wrong.

27th January 2011, 01:16 AM	#11
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,247	The thing, which I really don't understand is the joint between wrongko and gandar. This let me think of a kind of some kind of compromise or workaround: the sorts of material and the upper silver band are put together in the most peculiar possible configuration. As I understand, the wrongko is made from horn?

27th January 2011, 08:45 AM	#12
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	Very neat piece, Michael! Could you please share dimensions? I guess the hilt is not removable? Thanks! Regards, Kai

27th January 2011, 09:40 AM	#13
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks for all comments! Here are some more answers to your questions: The blade is 47,5 cm (my resembling Minang that Gustav posted is 39 cm). The reason that they are hanging next to each other at my Sumatran keris wall is maybe why I didn't think of Lombok/Bali blades first? The wrangka is made of horn and now when you bring it up, Gustav, it really is a strange way of doing it? I checked the silver band but it has never been closer to the joint. Unfortunately the hilt isn't removable. There has been souvenir production going on among the Batak for over 100 years old so it's always tricky with stuff from that area. But I haven't seen that many Batak keris like mine flooding the market. And this one, like the one in Leiden, has been in Europe for a long time so it's not anything made up recently. Michael