Moro weapons...

Spunjer · 9th April 2005, 02:57 PM

interesting webpage:

http://1-22infantry.org/history/hartpagetwo.htm

of note are the two mini spears included in the picture. anyone knows or owns one of these? also one of the kris looks weird; looks like the separation line (gangya) is missing. as for the other kris (smaller one), it seems like the elephant's trunk is missing. interesting...

Ian · 9th April 2005, 03:09 PM

Spunjer:

Interesting page. The short spears could be arrows.

Ian.

tom hyle · 9th April 2005, 04:08 PM

so much thanks. Could they be arrows for a crossbow? Note that the handle's curvature on the broad kris (pardon me while I wipe some drool) is "backward" as we have seen before on some other kris sundang and other large k(e)ris, but only/mainly in specific cultural settings; Visayan and I don't know if any decision ever came out of the discussion of the leaf blade kris with the antler handle (are there two of them? I know we've seen it multiple times, but maybe even not on the new forum). Speculation/explanation has been that it is more suited to a Visayan thrusting style, which seems to be true.

Spunjer · 9th April 2005, 05:02 PM

ian,

the arrow sounds interesting, but don't you think it's too ornated for that purpose (ferrule behind the broadhead, for better lack of terms

)?

Rick · 9th April 2005, 05:04 PM

I have read , Hurley , Warren (?) that these little spears were thrown by the handfull to clear the decks of vessels while boarding . They could also have been used on land against attackers too I guess .

This is the first time I have seen these weapons , I am unsure how the size of the head would affect the flight if used as a crossbow bolt ; don't most crossbow bolts have fairly small heads ?

tom hyle · 9th April 2005, 05:54 PM

Yes, and the heads seem large for arrows in general, though we don't know how thin they are? The balance seems too forward for arrows, but I'm no archer. The blunt ferule seems impractical for penetration, but then, spears are certainly made that way, but then their blades are big enough to need go no deeper than the ferule.....Throwing may be a good idea about them; look at them maybe even as long-handled throwing knives, rather than spears, and it seems an interesting concept.

Rick · 9th April 2005, 06:13 PM

Comparing them to the weapons alongside I would estimate them to be 20+" long .
Two and a half inches penetration is all that is needed to deal a fatal wound ; they would also slow down approaching troops while they stopped to pull them out of their bodies .

A handfull of these thrown with force would have a shotgun like effect .
Easy to dodge one spear , not so easy to dodge several at once .
Most accounts of cotta battles refer to 'showers of spears' being thrown .
I do find it unusual not to have seen them in the flesh (N.P.I.

) before .

Ian · 10th April 2005, 12:07 AM

If we look at Plate 4 of Krieger (elsewhere on this site), there are several Moro arrows similar to the "small spears" shown on the web site cited above. Krieger's plates do contain errors, however, so the examples in his Plate 4 may have been mislabeled by the Smithsonian.

Ian

VANDOO · 10th April 2005, 06:34 AM

I HAVE READ IN SEVERAL ACCOUNTS OF THROWING WEAPONS REFERED TO AS DARTS THAT WERE THROWN IN BATTLES AND AMBUSH "UNFORTUNATELY I CAN'T REMEMBER WHERE OR WHEN"

. PERHAPS THAT IS WHAT THESE TWO SHORT SPEARS ARE, IT MIGNT BE POSSIBLE TO THROW A HANDFUL AT ONCE BY HOLDING THEM BY THE END AND SLINGING THEM IN THE DIRECTION OF THE FOE OR PERHAPS MORE ACCURATELY ONE AT A TIME.

9th April 2005, 02:57 PM	#1
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	Moro weapons... interesting webpage: http://1-22infantry.org/history/hartpagetwo.htm of note are the two mini spears included in the picture. anyone knows or owns one of these? also one of the kris looks weird; looks like the separation line (gangya) is missing. as for the other kris (smaller one), it seems like the elephant's trunk is missing. interesting...

9th April 2005, 05:04 PM	#5
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Small Spears I have read , Hurley , Warren (?) that these little spears were thrown by the handfull to clear the decks of vessels while boarding . They could also have been used on land against attackers too I guess . This is the first time I have seen these weapons , I am unsure how the size of the head would affect the flight if used as a crossbow bolt ; don't most crossbow bolts have fairly small heads ?

9th April 2005, 03:09 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Spunjer: Interesting page. The short spears could be arrows. Ian.

9th April 2005, 04:08 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	so much thanks. Could they be arrows for a crossbow? Note that the handle's curvature on the broad kris (pardon me while I wipe some drool) is "backward" as we have seen before on some other kris sundang and other large k(e)ris, but only/mainly in specific cultural settings; Visayan and I don't know if any decision ever came out of the discussion of the leaf blade kris with the antler handle (are there two of them? I know we've seen it multiple times, but maybe even not on the new forum). Speculation/explanation has been that it is more suited to a Visayan thrusting style, which seems to be true.

9th April 2005, 05:02 PM	#4
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	ian, the arrow sounds interesting, but don't you think it's too ornated for that purpose (ferrule behind the broadhead, for better lack of terms )?

9th April 2005, 05:54 PM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Yes, and the heads seem large for arrows in general, though we don't know how thin they are? The balance seems too forward for arrows, but I'm no archer. The blunt ferule seems impractical for penetration, but then, spears are certainly made that way, but then their blades are big enough to need go no deeper than the ferule.....Throwing may be a good idea about them; look at them maybe even as long-handled throwing knives, rather than spears, and it seems an interesting concept.

9th April 2005, 06:13 PM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Comparing them to the weapons alongside I would estimate them to be 20+" long . Two and a half inches penetration is all that is needed to deal a fatal wound ; they would also slow down approaching troops while they stopped to pull them out of their bodies . A handfull of these thrown with force would have a shotgun like effect . Easy to dodge one spear , not so easy to dodge several at once . Most accounts of cotta battles refer to 'showers of spears' being thrown . I do find it unusual not to have seen them in the flesh (N.P.I. ) before .

10th April 2005, 12:07 AM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	If we look at Plate 4 of Krieger (elsewhere on this site), there are several Moro arrows similar to the "small spears" shown on the web site cited above. Krieger's plates do contain errors, however, so the examples in his Plate 4 may have been mislabeled by the Smithsonian. Ian

10th April 2005, 06:34 AM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I HAVE READ IN SEVERAL ACCOUNTS OF THROWING WEAPONS REFERED TO AS DARTS THAT WERE THROWN IN BATTLES AND AMBUSH "UNFORTUNATELY I CAN'T REMEMBER WHERE OR WHEN" . PERHAPS THAT IS WHAT THESE TWO SHORT SPEARS ARE, IT MIGNT BE POSSIBLE TO THROW A HANDFUL AT ONCE BY HOLDING THEM BY THE END AND SLINGING THEM IN THE DIRECTION OF THE FOE OR PERHAPS MORE ACCURATELY ONE AT A TIME.