Taming Sari???

[Neo]

When you search the google for images of the famous Malaysian icon of Majapahit origin, most results return with image of a luk 3 keris with a unique cucumber-shaped hilt, guilded with gems. Is that how the actual Taming Sari looks like?

[David]

Ah, Neo, my kingdom for a time machine...
When you google Jesus most images show you a guy with European features, often blondish and with blue eyes.
Like all legends that may or may not have historical reality, the truth about the form of the actual Taming Sari will probably be forever elusive. The one you describe is what is claimed to be the original currently in the royal regalia of Sultan Azlan Shah, the Sultan of Perak, Malaysia. But in some of the legends the keris was thrown into the river. The history of this blade is very muddled and i don't think anyone can say with any evidential certainty what is what. Is the one in the royal regalia the true keris? I guess it all a matter of what you choose to believe.
I would venture to say that even it the keris that is claimed to be Taming Sari is the original keris, it is most certainly not in it's original clothing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taming_Sari

[Amuk Murugul]

Hullo everybody!

It all boils down to a matter of faith .....

As far as I am concerned, Tameng Sari was the name of the Madja Pait warrior defeated by Hang Toeah and whose weapon was souvenired by same.

Best,

[David]

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

It all boils down to a matter of faith .....

As far as I am concerned, Tameng Sari was the name of the Madja Pait warrior defeated by Hang Toeah and whose weapon was souvenired by same.

Amuk, this is pretty much the established story, though i am not quite sure that "souvenir" would be exactly the correct term.
Neo's question is about what this keris may have looked like. Are you of the mind that the keris currently in regalia of the Sultan of Perak is actually this very keris or that it is still lost or missing? If indeed the keris of this regalia ia Taming Sari, then we know what form it takes.

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by David

Amuk, this is pretty much the established story, though i am not quite sure that "souvenir" would be exactly the correct term.
Neo's question is about what this keris may have looked like. Are you of the mind that the keris currently in regalia of the Sultan of Perak is actually this very keris or that it is still lost or missing? If indeed the keris of this regalia ia Taming Sari, then we know what form it takes.

Hullo David,

I tend to believe that I have an open and objective mind. I always wish that anything I think may be true were so.
However, I now tend to approach things with an open and objective mind slightly tempered with scepticism born of experience.
You may have some idea of the relief and exuberance I feel when something proves to be true.

WRT the keris in question (if indeed it WAS a keris) ..... as the Malays would say: Wallahualam (God knows)..... in the absence of incontravertible proof.

Best,

[David]

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

WRT the keris in question (if indeed it WAS a keris) ..... as the Malays would say: Wallahualam (God knows)..... in the absence of incontravertible proof.

Interesting...what else would you suggest it might have been? Have you heard stories suggesting it was anything else?

[Neo]

Well, actually my question was not whether or not it was the actual Taming Sari

I am more interested in whether or not that jangkung (?) keris with fancy cucumber hilt is the one that the Perak Sultanate CLAIMS to be Taming Sari. It is more about their IDEA of Taming Sari, how it would look like ... let's just assume for a second that the Sultanate tailored the story and the actual Taming Sari was lost in the river. Then, logically, the Sultan would be most likely to commission for a keris that looks as close as possible to the actual Taming Sari from his memory, not something that he fancied of having.

The purpose of this question is so the next time I talk to that Dukun Tarik, I can inspect the kerises that he pulled from the astral plane and look to see if Taming Sari has returned back to Java, so I can get it and be the next Hang Tuah ... Just kidding

I also like that cucumber hilt (this is related to my prior post) and would like to learn more about its style. That hilt doesn't seem common. I guess it's Malay style?

[PenangsangII]

The hilt of the so-called tameng Sari is called "ketam guri", or I saw it somewhere Madurese term as tongkol jagung.

WRT the keris, and if the keris in question is made state regalia of Perak, I think Tameng Sari was a "gift" from the Majapahit king to his son in law, Sultan of Melaka as its a tradition still practised by the Jawanese till today. The keris was then given to the chief admiral, dato Hang Tuah. That's why after the failure to ask mount Ophir princess for hand in marriage, the keris was retured to the sultan while hang Tuah moksha forever......

well, a lil bit of folk lore story to brighten up our day

[Neo]

Penangsang II: Thanks!! ketam guri, tongkol jagung ... hmmmmmm ... not many images on the WEB or on the book. Indeed, the keris world has little to offer to the online, armchair enthusiast; much of the keris skills is to be learned from personal encounters.

David: You're right, I seem to have a time machine syndrome. Prior to this, I was obsessed with learning about Japan's Kusanagi. The nice thing is, it is easier to search online for info and images of the Kusanagi. When it comes to Taming Sari, I couldn't find any authoritative website with semi-scholarly article on the fabled blade. Mostl are just blog-like writings, quoting some version of the Hang Tuah legend and displaying the jangkung keris with tongkol jagung image, so I was not even sure if that's the one that the Perak Sultanate claimed to be Taming Sari.

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by Neo

Well, actually my question was not whether or not it was the actual Taming Sari

I am more interested in whether or not that jangkung (?) keris with fancy cucumber hilt is the one that the Perak Sultanate CLAIMS to be Taming Sari.

Hullo Neo,

In case you haven't looked here yet:

http://sultan.perak.gov.my/bahasa/keris_taming.htm

Best,

[David]

Originally Posted by Neo

Well, actually my question was not whether or not it was the actual Taming Sari

I am more interested in whether or not that jangkung (?) keris with fancy cucumber hilt is the one that the Perak Sultanate CLAIMS to be Taming Sari. It is more about their IDEA of Taming Sari, how it would look like ... let's just assume for a second that the Sultanate tailored the story and the actual Taming Sari was lost in the river. Then, logically, the Sultan would be most likely to commission for a keris that looks as close as possible to the actual Taming Sari from his memory, not something that he fancied of having.

I don't think anyone suggested that this was your original question Neo. Still it bares some examining and if there was any solid evidence that it is the original it would in fact answer your question. It doesn't seem possible however to prove this, so as Amuk suggests, it's a matter of faith.
I do think that you need to put your time frame into perspective though. It would appear that this keris did not come into the possession of the Sultans until the late 19th century at the earliest. It was apparently in the family of the Admiralty for generations before, or so the story goes. So while this may or may not be the actual mythical blade i doubt that the Sultan had it commissioned and then started telling people it was Taming Sari and i doubt that he would have any idea what the actual blade was supposed to look like anyway as it was made and had it's legendary existence centuries before that time.

[Neo]

It would appear that this keris did not come into the possession of the Sultans until the late 19th century at the earliest. It was apparently in the family of the Admiralty for generations before, or so the story goes.

Interesting ... Could you tell me the source of this information? I have an open-minded friend in Malaysia who is obsessed with Taming Sari and Hang Tuah ... He will devour this info

Amuk Murugul: Thanks. Saw that page before, but I overlooked the fact that the url is from the Perak Sultanate. So that is one official source.

[David]

Originally Posted by Neo

Interesting ... Could you tell me the source of this information?

Neo, did you not read the link i gave you in my first response to you?

It's not a very large article, but here is the pertinent information from it:

"Before the Taming Sari became part of the Perak Royalty's regalia, it is believed to have been a hereditary article of the family of the Laksamana (Navy Admiral) who for generations, through succession, ruled as the territorial chief of Hilir Perak.
It is believed that the last territorial chief who had the famed keris in his possession was Laksamana Mohd Amin Alang Duakap. In 1876, he was arrested alongside many other rich aristocrats of his time for the alleged involvement in the murder of the first British Resident, James W.W. Birch. Together with Datuk Shahbandar Uda Kediti (the territorial chief of Kerian), Sultan Abdullah (the reigning Perak monarch of the time) and Menteri Paduka Ngah Ibrahim (the famous administrator of tin-rich Larut), Laksamana Mohd Amin was banished to the Seychelles.
After that, the British administration in Perak seized the properties of the territorial chiefs involved and these included the Taming Sari. However, the Sultan Yussuf, who succeeded the banished Sultan Abdullah, persuaded the British not to take the keris away to England[citation needed] and managed to gain possession of the keris."

[Neo]

Sorry Boss, my bad
I've visited that Wiki page many times over but always quickly scanned that laksamana part without ever arriving at the conclusion "oh, the Sultanate did not have it until then".
DOH!

[David]

Now keep in mind that the Wiki article itself lacks any citation of source, so who is to say where the write got their information...

[A. G. Maisey]

This comment is not directly targetted at the keris under discussion, but is more in the nature of a general comment on the authenticity of all keris & etc claimed as pusaka.

I suggest a detailed and attentive reading of both Weiner and Ricklefs.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I suggest a detailed and attentive reading of both Weiner and Ricklefs.

Good advice indeed. Can you tell us if there is any particular book of M.C. Ricklefs' that you recommend first as he has written extensively on the area?

[A. G. Maisey]

David, I am not at home, and cannot give you correct titles and reference data, however, a good place to start might be a paper that Ricklefs wrote:

The Missing Pusakas of Kartosuro

you will probably have to go to interlibrary loan from a university to get hold of it.

There is a lot of reference to this matter, but it mostly involves reading extensive quantities of pretty boring matter for a few words, and then reading between the lines and going to that book's writer's references. There is no easy route--- well, not that I know of anyway.

There's a good book Ricklefs wrote that gives some interesting insights too, forget the correct title, but its something like Economy,Culture, War, Java 167something to 172something

[drdavid]

War, Culture and Economy in Java, 1677-1726: Asian and European Imperialism in the Early Kartasura Period (Southeast Asia Publications Series) by M. C. Ricklefs (Apr 1993)

[David]

Originally Posted by drdavid

War, Culture and Economy in Java, 1677-1726: Asian and European Imperialism in the Early Kartasura Period (Southeast Asia Publications Series) by M. C. Ricklefs (Apr 1993)

Thanks Dr. D, i already had my sights on that book...