HOW TO SPOT A TRUE SHAMSHIR MAKER STAMP???

ALEX · 6th February 2006, 11:22 AM

Here are two different stamps.
One is gold coftgari and another is chiselled.
QUESTION: How can one tell of AUTHENTICITY of a stamp? And what do you think of these two???
I've seen obvious fake stamps, especially in gold coftgari work, where the wire mesh runs too far outside the boundaries of the golden leaf. In my case, there are few spots where you can see that, but overall the wires are inside the leaf.
The true authentic stamp does affect the sword's value, so it's quite important to know some 101 on the subject. Any ideas???

erlikhan · 6th February 2006, 11:29 AM

I think both are authentic. first is with kofgari, 2nd is with gold inlay but most of the inlay has gone. Both are authentic according to me. What I am especially not sure is ,if they are definite maker stamp or not. Perhaps just some prayers on the blade. And, if you have pictures of those obvious fake stamps, I would like to see them for experience

regards

Radu Transylvanicus · 6th February 2006, 11:44 AM

Interesting debate but I have slighty different aproach to this. I dont really agree the cartouche is necesarilly a makers mark. Lets not forget that in many cases they are rather owners work and prefference and are or not contemporary to the birth of the saber itself. Many times the appearing name is not of the blade smith but the owner or even more strange (to an Eurocentric, at least) the name belongs to the sword itself. I dont consider a prayer cartouche to be necesarily a makers mark. Arent we rather talking about a "a la carte" or "not a la carte" technique of decoration here? The question of authenticity remains to be defined as what exactly reffered to.

Jens Nordlunde · 6th February 2006, 04:06 PM

Hi Alex,

Look at it this way, ‘who is the most important man, the one who just ordered a sword, or the sword maker?’ As the man who is going to pay for the sword thinks he is, it will most likely be his name on the blade – unless the sword maker is very famous, as it will then give prestige, to have his name on the blade as well. It did however sometimes so happen, that the sword maker forgot his own name when the decoration was to be made, and only remembered a name of a sword maker more famous than himself. Sheer forgetfulness, but a problem for the collector, one or two hundred years later.

Some, if not most, of the inscriptions are religious verses, and last but not least, a lot of the inscriptions were made later than the blade – some of them much later.

To be able to look through this smoke screen, you need knowledge enough to tell how old the blade is, and to know how the decorations changed through times, when you know this, you can tell if the decoration was made at the same time as the blade – maybe. Sometimes the decorations were made in a style older than the one used at the time of making. Good luck.
Quite a few of the stamps you see on blades are also religious verses, and not necessarily owners or makers mark.

Nice pictures you show, thank you.

Jim McDougall · 6th February 2006, 06:08 PM

Beautifully said Jens!!!

I agree completely with what you and Radu have well explained here. The cartouches were often added at a later time, and typically were prayer invocations. In later times as commercialism increased and the use of trade blades intensified it was indeed very common for makers to add the names of earlier and more renowned makers to enhance the value of the blades.
For probably one of the best resources that addresses cartouches and markings found on many shamshir blades, I would very highly recommend
"The Persian Shamshir and the Signature of Assad Allah" by Oliver Pinchot ("Arms Collecting" , Vol.40, #1, Feb.2002). The author is well known among serious collectors and students of Islamic arms and armour, and goes into considerable well explained detail describing the development the shamshir's favor and the later advent of production blades that occur frequently on many examples. His attention to the cartouches, as discussed here ,is of course key to his article.

The beauty of the Persian shamshir is always astounding, regardless of the age of the blade, and those who own true examples are very fortunate indeed!

Best regards,
Jim

6th February 2006, 04:06 PM	#4
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Hi Alex, Look at it this way, ‘who is the most important man, the one who just ordered a sword, or the sword maker?’ As the man who is going to pay for the sword thinks he is, it will most likely be his name on the blade – unless the sword maker is very famous, as it will then give prestige, to have his name on the blade as well. It did however sometimes so happen, that the sword maker forgot his own name when the decoration was to be made, and only remembered a name of a sword maker more famous than himself. Sheer forgetfulness, but a problem for the collector, one or two hundred years later. Some, if not most, of the inscriptions are religious verses, and last but not least, a lot of the inscriptions were made later than the blade – some of them much later. To be able to look through this smoke screen, you need knowledge enough to tell how old the blade is, and to know how the decorations changed through times, when you know this, you can tell if the decoration was made at the same time as the blade – maybe. Sometimes the decorations were made in a style older than the one used at the time of making. Good luck. Quite a few of the stamps you see on blades are also religious verses, and not necessarily owners or makers mark. Nice pictures you show, thank you. Last edited by Jens Nordlunde; 6th February 2006 at 04:34 PM.

6th February 2006, 11:22 AM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	HOW TO SPOT A TRUE SHAMSHIR MAKER STAMP??? Here are two different stamps. One is gold coftgari and another is chiselled. QUESTION: How can one tell of AUTHENTICITY of a stamp? And what do you think of these two??? I've seen obvious fake stamps, especially in gold coftgari work, where the wire mesh runs too far outside the boundaries of the golden leaf. In my case, there are few spots where you can see that, but overall the wires are inside the leaf. The true authentic stamp does affect the sword's value, so it's quite important to know some 101 on the subject. Any ideas??? Attached Images

6th February 2006, 11:29 AM	#2
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	I think both are authentic. first is with kofgari, 2nd is with gold inlay but most of the inlay has gone. Both are authentic according to me. What I am especially not sure is ,if they are definite maker stamp or not. Perhaps just some prayers on the blade. And, if you have pictures of those obvious fake stamps, I would like to see them for experience regards

6th February 2006, 11:44 AM	#3
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	Interesting debate but I have slighty different aproach to this. I dont really agree the cartouche is necesarilly a makers mark. Lets not forget that in many cases they are rather owners work and prefference and are or not contemporary to the birth of the saber itself. Many times the appearing name is not of the blade smith but the owner or even more strange (to an Eurocentric, at least) the name belongs to the sword itself. I dont consider a prayer cartouche to be necesarily a makers mark. Arent we rather talking about a "a la carte" or "not a la carte" technique of decoration here? The question of authenticity remains to be defined as what exactly reffered to.

6th February 2006, 06:08 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Beautifully said Jens!!! I agree completely with what you and Radu have well explained here. The cartouches were often added at a later time, and typically were prayer invocations. In later times as commercialism increased and the use of trade blades intensified it was indeed very common for makers to add the names of earlier and more renowned makers to enhance the value of the blades. For probably one of the best resources that addresses cartouches and markings found on many shamshir blades, I would very highly recommend "The Persian Shamshir and the Signature of Assad Allah" by Oliver Pinchot ("Arms Collecting" , Vol.40, #1, Feb.2002). The author is well known among serious collectors and students of Islamic arms and armour, and goes into considerable well explained detail describing the development the shamshir's favor and the later advent of production blades that occur frequently on many examples. His attention to the cartouches, as discussed here ,is of course key to his article. The beauty of the Persian shamshir is always astounding, regardless of the age of the blade, and those who own true examples are very fortunate indeed! Best regards, Jim