Identification of a dagger

Pitt1999 · 27th December 2022, 05:02 AM

This dagger was sold as a kindjal but I'm not quite sure that is what it is. The overall length is 11 3/8 inches with the blade making up 7 inches of that length. The hilt scales are horn secured to the tang with 6 iron/steel pins with what looks like a small iron/steel guard. The scabbard is a simple construction of stitched leather over wood. The 6 pin construction and the presence of a guard throw me a little. Most kindjal that I have seen have a fairly consistent 3 pin/rivet securing method. The only kindjal-esque weapons that I have seen with guards were examples from Bulgaria or Greece, this dagger doesn't look much like examples from either of these regions. Do I have a kindjal or something else? Your comments and musings are appreciated as always.

P.S. These are the seller's photos.

Thanks

ariel · 27th December 2022, 08:01 PM

It is, as you said, "kinzhal-esque", but seems to have some age. Definitely not Caucasian. There are even no scabbard elements: either the dagger was intended to be tucked under the belt or under the boot top. Pretty village quality of execution.
My best guess it is somewhere from the boondocks of the Ottoman Empire, such as Bulgaria, Romania, poor areas of the Balkans....

Rick · 28th December 2022, 04:32 AM

The vertical ribbing on the scabbard is an interesting touch. There is definitely something to be said for the humbler pieces.

Everyman's boot knife has a charm all its own.

Pitt1999 · 29th December 2022, 11:53 PM

Thanks for the interesting information, it didn't seem quite like a village quality piece to me. I thought it looked about "middle of the road" in terms of quality, too basic for the prince but too nice for the pauper. Are there any (english language) books strictly on kindjal? I can tell the difference between certain regions with some certainty, but when it comes to the "micro-regional" or "micro-ethnic" differences I get a little bit lost.

Pitt1999 · 30th December 2022, 12:59 AM

Also when I get the piece in my hands I will add photos of anything that wasn't shown in the seller's photos.

mariusgmioc · 30th December 2022, 10:05 AM

Definitely NOT Bulgaria nor Romania and almost certainly NOT the Balkans.

To me it looks like Caucasian qama/kindjal blade and hilt, reshaped into a dagger. I assume the tip of the original blade was badly damaged and the blade was shortened and turned into a dagger.

ariel · 30th December 2022, 10:51 AM

Have you ever seen a 2x2x2 pin construction and a small flat steel guard on any Caucasian kindjal? Can you show an example?

kronckew · 30th December 2022, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

The vertical ribbing on the scabbard is an interesting touch. ...

The wood core may have been carved out with a carving gouge, inside & out. On the outside covered in leather you might still see the gouge marks. Maybe deliberately.

This gouge is from Ukraine, where they traditionally carve decorative spoons. Width of cut available from 5-25 mm. This is a 5mm one.
very similar tools are used worldwide, tho. The village blacksmith makes the knife (and the gouge), the village wood carver makes the scabbard (and maybe the grip scales & gouge grip), and the village shoe/saddle maker does the leather work...

mariusgmioc · 30th December 2022, 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Have you ever seen a 2x2x2 pin construction and a small flat steel guard on any Caucasian kindjal? Can you show an example?

The repurpose of the old qama could have been done anywhere, even in a trench during WWI

ariel · 31st December 2022, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

The repurpose of the old qama could have been done anywhere, even in a trench during WWI

This one does not look as if either blade or, especially, the handle were remade. I doubt that trenches of WWI were the most convenient place for that. And, wouldn't the " repurposer" also require a new scabbard? And why manufacture a definitely non-Caucasian handle with a totally non-Caucasian guard? In short, how would major remake of a Caucasian kindjal into something non-Caucasian improve its function?

Look at the book of Tarik Koze "Balkan Arms": it has examples of double-edged knives with similarly short blade with central ridge.

Time-venerated Occam's rule would be in favor of the original dagger from an area different from Caucasus.

Have a Happy New Year!

ariel · 31st December 2022, 03:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pitt1999

Thanks for the interesting information, it didn't seem quite like a village quality piece to me. I thought it looked about "middle of the road" in terms of quality, too basic for the prince but too nice for the pauper.

I might have used a word that could have been easily misinterpreted. Sorry.

It seems to be a good dagger from a practical point of view: strong, sturdy, utilitarian, without excesses but with additional hand protection ( hand guard). It will function ( slice bread or sausage, kill an opponent or a chicken etc.) just as well as the most elaborate dagger in the world.

What I meant that it your dagger is original, untouched, perfectly functional, but without any artistic touch that was characteristic of high-class knifemakers. A lot of knives from the 15th and up to the early 20th century were made locally by village smiths, and they were perfectly good for the local folks.

There are as many collections as there are collectors, and they are all about history. Your dagger was meant for actual use and could tell stories far more interesting than the yataghans of Suleiman or Bayazet that spent their entire lives locked in a box in Topkapi. Enjoy it!

Pitt1999 · 1st January 2023, 09:08 PM

So I received the dagger in the mail a couple of days ago. There was nothing else of note with the blade and scabbard other than one of the edges shows light wear from use/sharpening and the wooden core of the scabbard is broken. What was two pieces of wood is now four. The interesting part is the hilt, the 6 pin construction was pointed out before along with the presence of a guard but what couldn't be seen are the sides of the hilt where normally the tang would be visible. I say normally because there is a strip of some type of metal, maybe lead, zinc or pewter wrapped along the edges of the tang. Stranger still the metal strip and the guard appear to be one continuous piece, or they were two pieces joined by soldering, brazing or some similar process. To me at least these elements seem to be very unusual for a kindjal.

Tim Simmons · 2nd January 2023, 12:44 PM

The six pin and a sort of filler strip of metal around the tang and tucked into the guard is found on modern knives from a Pakistan company. I would assume it would be a traditional form? I have two examples.

kronckew · 2nd January 2023, 01:23 PM

The tang covering metal strip is common for Ottoman/Turkish knives/swords/yataghans with pinned scales...

27th December 2022, 05:02 AM	#1
Pitt1999 Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 105	Identification of a dagger This dagger was sold as a kindjal but I'm not quite sure that is what it is. The overall length is 11 3/8 inches with the blade making up 7 inches of that length. The hilt scales are horn secured to the tang with 6 iron/steel pins with what looks like a small iron/steel guard. The scabbard is a simple construction of stitched leather over wood. The 6 pin construction and the presence of a guard throw me a little. Most kindjal that I have seen have a fairly consistent 3 pin/rivet securing method. The only kindjal-esque weapons that I have seen with guards were examples from Bulgaria or Greece, this dagger doesn't look much like examples from either of these regions. Do I have a kindjal or something else? Your comments and musings are appreciated as always. P.S. These are the seller's photos. Thanks Attached Images

1st January 2023, 09:08 PM	#12
Pitt1999 Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 105	So I received the dagger in the mail a couple of days ago. There was nothing else of note with the blade and scabbard other than one of the edges shows light wear from use/sharpening and the wooden core of the scabbard is broken. What was two pieces of wood is now four. The interesting part is the hilt, the 6 pin construction was pointed out before along with the presence of a guard but what couldn't be seen are the sides of the hilt where normally the tang would be visible. I say normally because there is a strip of some type of metal, maybe lead, zinc or pewter wrapped along the edges of the tang. Stranger still the metal strip and the guard appear to be one continuous piece, or they were two pieces joined by soldering, brazing or some similar process. To me at least these elements seem to be very unusual for a kindjal. Attached Images

27th December 2022, 08:01 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It is, as you said, "kinzhal-esque", but seems to have some age. Definitely not Caucasian. There are even no scabbard elements: either the dagger was intended to be tucked under the belt or under the boot top. Pretty village quality of execution. My best guess it is somewhere from the boondocks of the Ottoman Empire, such as Bulgaria, Romania, poor areas of the Balkans....

28th December 2022, 04:32 AM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	The vertical ribbing on the scabbard is an interesting touch. There is definitely something to be said for the humbler pieces. Everyman's boot knife has a charm all its own.

29th December 2022, 11:53 PM	#4
Pitt1999 Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 105	Thanks for the interesting information, it didn't seem quite like a village quality piece to me. I thought it looked about "middle of the road" in terms of quality, too basic for the prince but too nice for the pauper. Are there any (english language) books strictly on kindjal? I can tell the difference between certain regions with some certainty, but when it comes to the "micro-regional" or "micro-ethnic" differences I get a little bit lost.

30th December 2022, 12:59 AM	#5
Pitt1999 Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 105	Also when I get the piece in my hands I will add photos of anything that wasn't shown in the seller's photos.

30th December 2022, 10:05 AM	#6
mariusgmioc Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Austria Posts: 1,903	Definitely NOT Bulgaria nor Romania and almost certainly NOT the Balkans. To me it looks like Caucasian qama/kindjal blade and hilt, reshaped into a dagger. I assume the tip of the original blade was badly damaged and the blade was shortened and turned into a dagger.

30th December 2022, 10:51 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Have you ever seen a 2x2x2 pin construction and a small flat steel guard on any Caucasian kindjal? Can you show an example?

2nd January 2023, 12:44 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	The six pin and a sort of filler strip of metal around the tang and tucked into the guard is found on modern knives from a Pakistan company. I would assume it would be a traditional form? I have two examples.

2nd January 2023, 01:23 PM	#14
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,181	The tang covering metal strip is common for Ottoman/Turkish knives/swords/yataghans with pinned scales...