Need id and translation for a big blunderbuss.

[Cerjak]

Need id and translation for a big blunderbuss.
Hi everybody
I hope somebody could be able to tell me more about this quiet big blunderbuss. I don’t know in which language the marks in the stock are. The total size is around 125 cm for around 6 KG.
I Guess it was a English flintlock blunderbuss who was turn into percussion.
IT will be fantastic is someone will be able to translate those marks.
Best regards

Cerjak

[Cerjak]

still need help to translate or ID the marks .
I hope it will solved....

[VVV]

I don't know anything of blunderbusses.

But the motifs are Islamic talismans and the rattan bindings resembles those usually found on the Dayak mandau.
So my guess is that it might come from the Banjarmasin area in south Borneo where both these features are common.

Michael

[Dom]

Originally Posted by VVV

the motifs are Islamic talismans

Hi
YES, it's Islamic talismanic writing, but, through Arabic language,
means nothing intelligible
by vocation, everything related to magic is often very obscure
for the not initiated

à +

Dom

[TribalBlades]

i can read it and it is in arabic. but i can read only the individual characters because the words dont make sense. i think the word in the centre is similar to شيطان which means "devil" / satan.

but i am not sure. it is just a possible answer.

[VVV]

Dom,

Maybe the writing is based on simiya' (the art where the letters represent mathematical values of hidden words, names etc.)?

Michael

[Maurice]

Wow. I like this blunderbuss a lot!
Very cool. I would say Banjarmasin area also as Michael stated, as there were a lot of Blunderbusses used in the Banjarmasin war. The knots indeed looks like dayak knots used to hold the two slabs of wood of the scabbard together.

I've attached an image of some blunderbusses on a litograph of (about) 1881, Bronbeek museum Arnhem.


Thanks for sharing!
Maurice

[kahnjar1]

Hi Cerjak,
I assume that there are no marks on either the lock or the barrel? The style of the weapon LOOKS British with added script and raffia barrel bands, but without any proof marks it is guesswork. The hammer looks way too rough for a British piece but it could have been replaced at some stage.
Sorry can't be of more help.
Regards Stuart

[asomotif]

Wow ! lovely piece.

There is decoration on top of the barrel. Can you make a better picture of that ? is it inlay ?

Best regards,
Willem

[VVV]

Originally Posted by TribalBlades

i can read it and it is in arabic. but i can read only the individual characters because the words dont make sense. i think the word in the centre is similar to شيطان which means "devil" / satan.

but i am not sure. it is just a possible answer.

It's not Satan/Iblis etc. but related to djinns etc. being the 7 seals of Solomon.
See the related thread
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16496

Michael

[Cerjak]

I have to says that his discussion forum is really fantastic and I there is in this place so much knowledge ,Michael I have really appreciate your precious help ,I was not expect this documentation about pan-Islamic talismanic motifs and I can’t thank you enough for your answer. I was afraid that all those signs was without significations and now I will appreciate much more this Blunderbuss.

kind regards

Cerjak

[archer]

Hi,
Stu is on to something the hammer is a bit odd, the area where the percussion nipple is located may have been a weld up flintlock pan. the lock seems to have extra holes that may have retained the frizzen spring of a flintlock. just a guess. Steve

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by archer

Hi,
Stu is on to something the hammer is a bit odd, the area where the percussion nipple is located may have been a weld up flintlock pan. the lock seems to have extra holes that may have retained the frizzen spring of a flintlock. just a guess. Steve

AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, THE KEY TO THE ORIGINAL ORIGIN WOULD BE ANY PROOF MARKS, EITHER ON THE VISIBLE PARTS OF THE BREECH AREA OF THE BARREL, OR THEY COULD BE UNDERNEATH. SINCE THE BANDS ARE RATTAN OR RAFFIA IT WOULD BE A DELICATE OPERATION TO REMOVE THEM SO THAT THE BARREL CAN BE LIFTED.
ONE FURTHER POSSIBILITY IS THAT THERE COULD BE MARKS INSIDE THE LOCK.
STU

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by archer

Hi,
Stu is on to something the hammer is a bit odd, the area where the percussion nipple is located may have been a weld up flintlock pan. the lock seems to have extra holes that may have retained the frizzen spring of a flintlock. just a guess. Steve

dear steeve

Yes I confirm you it was previously a flintlock blunderbluss.
Kind regards

cerjak

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by asomotif

There is decoration on top of the barrel. Can you make a better picture of that ? is it inlay ?
Best regards,
Willem

small reminder. maybe the decoration can indicate a certain origin

[asomotif]

I found this talismanic inscription on a website with Aceh swords.
In this case it is part of a peudeung which was also discussed onthis forum once.

http://home.comcast.net/~jtcrosby/Aceh.html

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Wow ! lovely piece.

There is decoration on top of the barrel. Can you make a better picture of that ? is it inlay ?

Best regards,
Willem

Dear Willen

Thank you very much for this very interesting link ,I will try to take some beteer pics from the top barrel

Regards
Cerjak

[Cerjak]

barrel pics

[kai]

The decoration does not look like Aceh IMHO.

I'm with Michael and Maurice and also believe this blunderbuss got modified/utilized in the Banjar/Negara region.

Regards,
Kai

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by kai

The decoration does not look like Aceh IMHO.

I'm with Michael and Maurice and also believe this blunderbuss got modified/utilized in the Banjar/Negara region.

Regards,
Kai

Hello Kai,

The decoration does not look Banjar/negara to me neither.
Does it to you ?

I hope that someone can check the writting and confirm or rule out jawi.

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by Cerjak

barrel pics

oops, almost forgot the big WOW for the decoration.

Envy is turning to a new shade of green here

Best regards,
Willem

[mohd]

Hi Willem, got your email.
So sorry for the late reply.
I was moving to Alor Setar some 460 km north of Kuala Lumpur.
I still don't have internet access at home and I have to go to cybercafe instead.

Regarding the translation .. I can't do that because it's a diagrammatical wafaq.
And I'm not trained in that discipline.
Anyhow the second line is called as Wafaq Sulaiman



And the first line .. IMVHO Dom knows the translation better than my broken Arabic



While the third line .. have to look further because I haven't found the similar wafaq .. will take some time because without internet access at home I'm a lot slow you know

Hope this helps a little.

mohd

[kai]

Hello Willem,

The decoration does not look Banjar/negara to me neither.

True - sorry for being terse. The silver inlay motif does look like Straits Chinese influence to me; they had a strong settlement in Banjarmassin and a lot more cultural interchange seems to have taken place there (compared to Aceh).

I can't remember having seen similar notches before though. Any similar examples (from firearms or other implements) throughout Asia?

Regards,
Kai

[kai]

Hello Mohd,

Thanks a lot for chiming in while being busy!

Regarding the translation .. I can't do that because it's a diagrammatical wafaq.

Is the round inscription from the other side of the stock also a wafaq?



Regards,
Kai

[VVV]

Originally Posted by mohd

(snip)
Anyhow the second line is called as Wafaq Sulaiman

mohd

Mohd,

Please explain how a straight line of symbols (Khatim Sulaiman) can be a wafaq ("magic square")?
Doesn't it have to be several lines, like a square or rectangle?
Or did you mean that the line with the symbols of Raja/Nabi Sulaiman (Solomon) is part of a wafaq?

Michael

[Dom]

Originally Posted by mohd

And the first line .. IMVHO Dom knows the translation better than my broken Arabic

Salam Bro.
thanks for the compliment ... I will forward it to the right person
unfortunately, I will not be available, from this evening (18th Dec.) until end of the week,
we are closing our home in Cairo - Egypt, and we will travel to Paris - France,
re-opening, gardening even if it's winter, collecting the most valuable weapons (for me ) , from here and there
and your story is .... an headache in perspective,
but I've some documentation, about "talismans matter" Islamic and pre-Islamic period, in Paris, may be should be an help
best regards

à +

Dom

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by mohd

Anyhow the second line is called as Wafaq Sulaiman



And the first line .. IMVHO Dom knows the translation better than my broken Arabic



mohd

Thank you Mohd for your kind help.

If I understand it right, these are all wafaq related inscritpions, and not a word Jawi. So the piece might be Atjeh, but there is no direct link to that region. (sorry guys, in the Netherlands we know these weapons mostly from the Aceh war )

I am posting the pictures of the 2 links you gave for future reference.

Best regards,
Willem

[Rick]

Thank you Willem .
I feel a little bit better about my guess now .

[asomotif]

Originally Posted by Rick

Thank you Willem .
I feel a little bit better about my guess now .

Your welcome

Still guessing on my side...
I wonder if this blunderbuss could have been decorated on the Philippines ?
Magic squares / talismanic signs etc. they are much more common in that region imho.

Best regards,
Willem

[VVV]

Originally Posted by asomotif

Your welcome

Still guessing on my side...
I wonder if this blunderbuss could have been decorated on the Philippines ?
Magic squares / talismanic signs etc. they are much more common in that region imho.

Best regards,
Willem

Willem,
I have never seen any magic squares or simiya'/abjad-letter symbolism on a Moro weapon???

Michael