Strange matchlock pistol for ID CHINA ?

Cerjak · 14th December 2012, 03:46 PM

A friend of me just send me those pics about a matchlock system.
I hope that somebody could help him for identification.
Sorry the bad photos quality .
Regards

Cerjak

trenchwarfare · 14th December 2012, 10:23 PM

Wow. Unlike anything I've ever seen. Everything is backward. Lock is on the left. "Hammer" cocks forward, like the earlier matchlocks. Trigger pushes forward. And, the rammer comes out the back. I love it! For some reason, I'm thinking Maylasia

Gavin Nugent · 14th December 2012, 11:54 PM

A very beautiful and unusual firearm, I like it a lot.

At face value, although a wide net, I would suggest French Indo China as a region of origin, where exactly within I couldn't say but a guess would lead me to the Laos Tonkin border regions.

Gav

Richard G · 16th December 2012, 04:07 PM

To what does the forum think "T" over "A" refers?
Regards
Richard

Atlantia · 16th December 2012, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard G

To what does the forum think "T" over "A" refers?
Regards
Richard

We have an old saying here in England about 'A over T'

David R · 16th December 2012, 07:40 PM

Check out South America, Amazonian area. They were using matchlocks there as late as the 19thC. I have seen some pics and they were quite original in design.

Cerjak · 26th November 2015, 11:40 AM

At last I found the origin from this very scarce matchlock pistol .
It will be nice if a member couls post one scan from “Islamic Weapons - Maghrib to Moghul" di Anthony C. Tirri", pag. 371, fig. 268” AS I don’t have this book
Best
CERJAK

dating: 18th Century
provenence: Ceylon
Round iron barrel completely engraved with wave design, breech brass plate with monogramm "AT" and floral engravings, 13 mm cal.; interesting leftside iron lock with brass pan and automatic pan cover mechanism; wooden full stock with engraved brass mounts and wooden ramrod.Illustrated in "Islamic Weapons - Maghrib to Moghul" di Anthony C. Tirri", pag. 371, fig. 268.
Most probably Portuguese craftmanship. The Only one known to exist.

rickystl · 26th November 2015, 05:01 PM

Hi Cerjak.
I have a copy of Tirri's book but never really noticed this pistol. So I just read about it. Has to be the most unusual matchlock mechanisms I've ever seen.
It's mentioned that most of the locks were mounted on the Left side of the gun. I wonder why? Usually, this was reserved for a left hand shooter that would make a custom order. Super unusual build and design. Thanks for posting this Thread. I need to look through this book more carefully. LOL
Rick.

Cerjak · 26th November 2015, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Cerjak.
I have a copy of Tirri's book but never really noticed this pistol. So I just read about it. Has to be the most unusual matchlock mechanisms I've ever seen.
It's mentioned that most of the locks were mounted on the Left side of the gun. I wonder why? Usually, this was reserved for a left hand shooter that would make a custom order. Super unusual build and design. Thanks for posting this Thread. I need to look through this book more carefully. LOL
Rick.

Hi Rick

Thank you for your comment I hope you could post one copy from this mentionned page.

Best

Cerjak

rickystl · 26th November 2015, 06:33 PM

I just took a photo of the page. Hope this works.....

Cerjak · 26th November 2015, 07:49 PM

Rick

No pictures for simailar pistols or similar lock ?

rickystl · 26th November 2015, 10:55 PM

Hi Cerjak.
No. No other photos than the ones posted above.
Rick.

Cerjak · 27th November 2015, 03:48 PM

Thank you Rick

So fig. 268 from Maghrib to Moghul" di Anthony C. Tirri", pag. 371 doesn't
exist in the book ?
May be an other book ?
Anyway i hope that somebody in the forum could find similar pistol or at less a similar lock I can't believe that there is only one exemplar for this pistol.

Best

Cerjak

rickystl · 27th November 2015, 04:30 PM

Hi Cerjak.
Here are the only two photos on page 371 of the book. I'm sure it's the same pistol as the photos above. Sorry for the poor quality of the pics.
Rick.

Cerjak · 27th November 2015, 04:51 PM

Rick

Thank you so much ,yes it is the same pistol !
I have spend hours looking after informattion about this pistol and never found a similar model .

Best

Cerjak

rickystl · 27th November 2015, 07:33 PM

Hi Cerjak.
I have never seen another pistol like it. It may indeed be the only one known to exist. It would be interesting to know the theory for mounting the locks on the Left side. Hmmmm

Rick.

Cerjak · 28th November 2015, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Cerjak.
I have never seen another pistol like it. It may indeed be the only one known to exist. It would be interesting to know the theory for mounting the locks on the Left side. Hmmmm

Rick.

Yes RICK

I have started this thread in december 2012 so It had took 3 years for ID this pistol but I will continue looking for similar pistol ,hopping that a day
I will find more information.
Thank you for your support.

Cerjak

Cerjak · 10th December 2015, 07:41 PM

Today this pistol joined my collection so I can post more pictures.I have discovered that the collection from Anthony C. Tirrisold was sold by Czerny’s in 2009 so this pistol come formally from this collection.
I still trying to find documentation about similar lock system and I hope that in the forum somebody will be able to bring some input about the firearms from Ceylon.
BEST
Cerjak

rickystl · 19th December 2015, 06:59 PM

Hi Cerjak!
First of all.......my congratulations!!! What a wonderful - and super interesting - addition to your collection. WOW !!!

Nice photos too. A couple of questions:
1. Does the lock function as a "snapping" type similar to a Japanese matchlock ? I can see where part of the serpentine pushes the pan cover forward upon release.
2. Does the trigger pull backward to release as normal? Or does it push forward to release?

Thanks so much for Posting.

Rick.

Cerjak · 19th December 2015, 09:16 PM

Hi Rick ,
Thank you very much for your interest.
Actually when one pushes the trigger, the pan cover moves backward and the serpentine get closer to the pan. When one releases the trigger the pan cover moves back to its normal position, and so does the serpentine.
Therefore its an automatic pan cover mechanism.
Did you notice Anthony C. Tirri", pag 460 fig 322 about imitation damascus stell ?
If a day you find more information about similar system please let me know.
Best
Cerjak

rickystl · 19th December 2015, 10:55 PM

Hi Cerjak.
Oh, I see. Now I know why the trigger looks backwards. LOL So you push the trigger forward rather than pulling it backwards. Now it makes sense.
So the lock is mounted on the left side, and the trigger is pushed rather than pulled. The exact opposite of other guns. That is certainly the most curious gun I've ever seen. Don't know how I missed that in Tirri's book. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I can imagine what an interesting display that gun would make at the Baltimore Antique Arms Show. LOL A real curiosity.
Again, congratulations!!
Rick.

estcrh · 19th December 2015, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickystl

Hi Cerjak.
It would be interesting to know the theory for mounting the locks on the Left side. Hmmmm

Rick.

Here are two interesting drawings.

rickystl · 20th December 2015, 05:20 PM

I wonder what the theory is with everything being done from the Left side. Curious.
Rick.

Cerjak · 21st December 2015, 10:21 AM

Hi estcrh,

Very interesting .From where did you find this pictures ?

Best

Cerjak

estcrh · 21st December 2015, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cerjak

Hi estcrh,

Very interesting .From where did you find this pictures ?

Best

Cerjak

Matchlocks
https://sirimunasiha.wordpress.com/a...la-matchlocks/

Flintlocks
https://sirimunasiha.wordpress.com/a...the-sinhalese/

Muskets and cannon
https://sirimunasiha.wordpress.com/t...-in-sri-lanka/

David R · 22nd December 2015, 01:14 AM

Left side lock and a push trigger! Could this be a more standard type lock, meant to be on the right side and with a pull trigger, mounted on the left for a particular customer or purpose?

Ian · 22nd December 2015, 06:35 AM

Cerjak,

Tirri says that the monogram reads "AT," which happen to be his own initials. Is it possible that he had the gun engraved with his own monogram? That would be odd, and he would likely have said so in his book, but it is a strange coincidence that his initials are the same as the monogram on the gun.

Ian.

Cerjak · 22nd December 2015, 01:04 PM

[QUOTE=Ian]Cerjak,

Tirri says that the monogram reads "AT," which happen to be his own initials. Is it possible that he had the gun engraved with his own monogram? That would be odd, and he would likely have said so in his book, but it is a strange coincidence that his initials are the same as the monogram on the gun.

Ian.[/QUOTE
Ian
I did not make the connection between this monogram and tirri initials.
Yes very odd but we will never know as Anthony C. Tirri passed away in 2014
Best

Cerjak

Cerjak · 30th April 2018, 11:05 AM

A very detailed article about this pistol has been written by Andrey the site administrator historypistols.ru and you can consult it by the following link, the article is written in Russian however the site has a translator.

http://historypistols.ru/blog/fitiln...tolet-18-veka/

Jon MB · 30th April 2018, 07:33 PM

Great references on a very interesting item, many thanks guys!

14th December 2012, 03:46 PM	#1
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Strange matchlock pistol for ID CHINA ? A friend of me just send me those pics about a matchlock system. I hope that somebody could help him for identification. Sorry the bad photos quality . Regards Cerjak Attached Images

26th November 2015, 11:40 AM	#7
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	very scarce matchlock pistol At last I found the origin from this very scarce matchlock pistol . It will be nice if a member couls post one scan from “Islamic Weapons - Maghrib to Moghul" di Anthony C. Tirri", pag. 371, fig. 268” AS I don’t have this book Best CERJAK dating: 18th Century provenence: Ceylon Round iron barrel completely engraved with wave design, breech brass plate with monogramm "AT" and floral engravings, 13 mm cal.; interesting leftside iron lock with brass pan and automatic pan cover mechanism; wooden full stock with engraved brass mounts and wooden ramrod.Illustrated in "Islamic Weapons - Maghrib to Moghul" di Anthony C. Tirri", pag. 371, fig. 268. Most probably Portuguese craftmanship. The Only one known to exist. Attached Images

26th November 2015, 06:33 PM	#10
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	I just took a photo of the page. Hope this works..... Attached Images

27th November 2015, 03:48 PM	#13
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	fig. 268 from Maghrib to Moghul" Thank you Rick So fig. 268 from Maghrib to Moghul" di Anthony C. Tirri", pag. 371 doesn't exist in the book ? May be an other book ? Anyway i hope that somebody in the forum could find similar pistol or at less a similar lock I can't believe that there is only one exemplar for this pistol. Best Cerjak

27th November 2015, 04:30 PM	#14
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Cerjak. Here are the only two photos on page 371 of the book. I'm sure it's the same pistol as the photos above. Sorry for the poor quality of the pics. Rick. Attached Images

14th December 2012, 10:23 PM	#2
trenchwarfare Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 385	Wow. Unlike anything I've ever seen. Everything is backward. Lock is on the left. "Hammer" cocks forward, like the earlier matchlocks. Trigger pushes forward. And, the rammer comes out the back. I love it! For some reason, I'm thinking Maylasia

14th December 2012, 11:54 PM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	A very beautiful and unusual firearm, I like it a lot. At face value, although a wide net, I would suggest French Indo China as a region of origin, where exactly within I couldn't say but a guess would lead me to the Laos Tonkin border regions. Gav

16th December 2012, 04:07 PM	#4
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 406	To what does the forum think "T" over "A" refers? Regards Richard

16th December 2012, 07:40 PM	#6
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Check out South America, Amazonian area. They were using matchlocks there as late as the 19thC. I have seen some pics and they were quite original in design.

26th November 2015, 05:01 PM	#8
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Cerjak. I have a copy of Tirri's book but never really noticed this pistol. So I just read about it. Has to be the most unusual matchlock mechanisms I've ever seen. It's mentioned that most of the locks were mounted on the Left side of the gun. I wonder why? Usually, this was reserved for a left hand shooter that would make a custom order. Super unusual build and design. Thanks for posting this Thread. I need to look through this book more carefully. LOL Rick.

26th November 2015, 07:49 PM	#11
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Rick No pictures for simailar pistols or similar lock ?

26th November 2015, 10:55 PM	#12
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Cerjak. No. No other photos than the ones posted above. Rick.

27th November 2015, 04:51 PM	#15
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Rick Thank you so much ,yes it is the same pistol ! I have spend hours looking after informattion about this pistol and never found a similar model . Best Cerjak

27th November 2015, 07:33 PM	#16
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Cerjak. I have never seen another pistol like it. It may indeed be the only one known to exist. It would be interesting to know the theory for mounting the locks on the Left side. Hmmmm Rick.

10th December 2015, 07:41 PM	#18
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Today this pistol joined my collection so I can post more pictures.I have discovered that the collection from Anthony C. Tirrisold was sold by Czerny’s in 2009 so this pistol come formally from this collection. I still trying to find documentation about similar lock system and I hope that in the forum somebody will be able to bring some input about the firearms from Ceylon. BEST Cerjak Attached Images Last edited by Cerjak; 10th December 2015 at 07:56 PM.

19th December 2015, 06:59 PM	#19
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Cerjak! First of all.......my congratulations!!! What a wonderful - and super interesting - addition to your collection. WOW !!! Nice photos too. A couple of questions: 1. Does the lock function as a "snapping" type similar to a Japanese matchlock ? I can see where part of the serpentine pushes the pan cover forward upon release. 2. Does the trigger pull backward to release as normal? Or does it push forward to release? Thanks so much for Posting. Rick.

19th December 2015, 09:16 PM	#20
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Hi Rick , Thank you very much for your interest. Actually when one pushes the trigger, the pan cover moves backward and the serpentine get closer to the pan. When one releases the trigger the pan cover moves back to its normal position, and so does the serpentine. Therefore its an automatic pan cover mechanism. Did you notice Anthony C. Tirri", pag 460 fig 322 about imitation damascus stell ? If a day you find more information about similar system please let me know. Best Cerjak Attached Images

19th December 2015, 10:55 PM	#21
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Cerjak. Oh, I see. Now I know why the trigger looks backwards. LOL So you push the trigger forward rather than pulling it backwards. Now it makes sense. So the lock is mounted on the left side, and the trigger is pushed rather than pulled. The exact opposite of other guns. That is certainly the most curious gun I've ever seen. Don't know how I missed that in Tirri's book. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I can imagine what an interesting display that gun would make at the Baltimore Antique Arms Show. LOL A real curiosity. Again, congratulations!! Rick.

20th December 2015, 05:20 PM	#23
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	I wonder what the theory is with everything being done from the Left side. Curious. Rick.

21st December 2015, 10:21 AM	#24
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	Hi estcrh, Very interesting .From where did you find this pictures ? Best Cerjak

22nd December 2015, 01:14 AM	#26
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Left side lock and a push trigger! Could this be a more standard type lock, meant to be on the right side and with a pull trigger, mounted on the left for a particular customer or purpose?

22nd December 2015, 06:35 AM	#27
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,200	Cerjak, Tirri says that the monogram reads "AT," which happen to be his own initials. Is it possible that he had the gun engraved with his own monogram? That would be odd, and he would likely have said so in his book, but it is a strange coincidence that his initials are the same as the monogram on the gun. Ian.

22nd December 2015, 01:04 PM	#28
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	[QUOTE=Ian]Cerjak, Tirri says that the monogram reads "AT," which happen to be his own initials. Is it possible that he had the gun engraved with his own monogram? That would be odd, and he would likely have said so in his book, but it is a strange coincidence that his initials are the same as the monogram on the gun. Ian.[/QUOTE Ian I did not make the connection between this monogram and tirri initials. Yes very odd but we will never know as Anthony C. Tirri passed away in 2014 Best Cerjak

30th April 2018, 11:05 AM	#29
Cerjak Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: FRANCE Posts: 1,065	historypistols.ru A very detailed article about this pistol has been written by Andrey the site administrator historypistols.ru and you can consult it by the following link, the article is written in Russian however the site has a translator. http://historypistols.ru/blog/fitiln...tolet-18-veka/ Attached Images

30th April 2018, 07:33 PM	#30
Jon MB Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 143	Great references on a very interesting item, many thanks guys!