Scottish targe shield ...

[francantolin]

Good Day dear members,

I have this shield for comment :
It was sold as an ''oriental iron shield''
but it looks more like a scottish targe with his celtics patterns...

Old ??
I Don't t know but it seems well made.

Do Scottish or Celtics shield be made of iron ?
Most of them were made of wood and leather covered but I haven't found many posts about this theme,
Targe, scottish targets....

Maybe it's made of brass like highlands targe do more than made of iron ?..
+ it seems to be another under layer, maybe made of wood but it is difficult to say just with the picture...

Any comment is welcomed .

Kind regards

[francantolin]

Back side is strange,
Contrast with reverse side,
Maybe later made ??

Unusual iron fittings and handles
Looks like old pot/cauldron handles ...

[toaster5sqn]

My gut instinct is a Victorian historicism piece. The arm strap should be leather with a buckle so it can be adjusted to suit the arm and the handle should be straight with square corners to provide a good grip, that curve would be horrible to hold. Also there is no sign that there was ever any padding fitted beneath the grips to cushion the arm.

Robert

[Radboud]

What are the dimensions? It looks small to me.

The screw holes in the 'arm loops' are another concern; countersunk like the one on the left screams more modern construction and like it is meant to be part of a larger display.

[francantolin]

Hello,
Yes it 's smaller than usual targes : 37cm/14,5 inches in diameter.
Maybe because it s too heavy ?
Deco ( victorian ?) /
or rapported pieces in a smaller circle ??
I can't say much for the moment...

[francantolin]

Glad if you have link for other posts/ site about targes
or a good reference book

[BBking]

Small all bronze scottish shield,

Sure not the same but they exists,
earlier target models...

[francantolin]

Interesting ! Thank you !!

Can you tell us from wich book the drawings
come from ?

[toaster5sqn]

14.5" is way to small for a strapped shield unless for a child and then it would be to heavy. At that size the whole elbow is exposed and that's a big no no, this thing is definitely decorative only.

Robert

[thinreadline]

I have seen similar supposed targes which were actually repurposed decorative side table tops

[urbanspaceman]

I was told by the vendor (selling his deceased father's collection: what a dispiriting task) that this was made in the 1960s as an exact reproduction by someone who specialised in the activity.
I was never given the name and wondered if anyone could verify this detail and perhaps elucidate further.
Included was this custom made dirk (with an 11inch blade) commissioned by a member of the McCulloch clan in the early 1900s but I don't think the targe is that old.

[Battara]

I agree - looks like a Victorian copy to me too. But a very nice one. i think they are becoming collectibles in their own right.

[francantolin]

Hello and thank you all for the messages,

I like your dirk urbanspaceman, can you show us the blade please !

I will post more close up pictures when I will receive it .
I'll with try to remove the iron back with handles , see if there is something interesting behind /old wood / old nails ...
perhaps/ sure nothing special but I like to dig ...

[urbanspaceman]

Here are the details I have unearthed to date:
This dirk was commissioned as a formal dress piece by a member of Clan McCulloch and fashioned in the style of the late 1600s/early 1700s. Its 11½" blade is stamped by Forsyth's. Around the top of the scabbard/sheath is inscribed "Vi et animo McCulloch" which is the clan's heraldic motto and translates as "By strength and Courage".
As had been customary for centuries, gentlemen's outfitters supplied swords and military accessories to their customers, often commissioning personalised pieces and custom designs from reputable craftsmen. R.W Forsyth was born in the Lothians, went to Glasgow as a nineteen-year old, and gained experience in clothing retailing with several city firms. In 1872 he set up in business as hosier, glover and shirt-maker in Renfield Street; then, on the opposite side of Argyle Street, Forsyth’s went to the expense of installing exterior electric lighting to illuminate their windows after dark – a first in Glasgow – and so make their second store a magnet for the public.

[urbanspaceman]

It's Keith (Fisher)

[Raf]

Originally Posted by francantolin

Hello and thank you all for the messages,



I will post more close up pictures when I will receive it .
I'll with try to remove the iron back with handles , see if there is something interesting behind /old wood / old nails ...
perhaps/ sure nothing special but I like to dig ...

I Think you may find that this is a Victorian electrotype replica. Widely used in the 1840s/50s to produce dimensionally accurate copies of museum originals. For those not familiar with the process a flexible mould was made and the interior of the mould dusted with powdered graphite Electrodes were connected to the graphite and copper was electrolytically deposited on the interior surface. The resulting cast was quite thin and usually reinforced with lead solder or pitch. The good news is that the original may still exist somewhere so might be traceable.

[francantolin]

Tadaaa,

this one is sold in an auction, exactly the same, idem in diameter,
sold as a small targe shield / hand use
( Too )expensive...

[francantolin]

Expensive fancy deco wall hanger shield
I think but it's ok for me

[francantolin]

Olé !

[Jim McDougall]

Indeed a very attractive piece, and even these reproduced examples are wonderful for display as they represent a most important Scottish tradition as key to the Highland warriors armament.

The original targes as per misc. references the Scot's targe was two layers of thin wood, pegged together with opposing grains , and 18 to 21" diameter.
The assembly was covered with hide, and various Celtic and geometric designs in brass or silver studs, nails.
There was a central boss.....often these had a spike or were a brass cup which could be unscrewed in certain cases.

The straps (as already noted) were typically leather with one adjustable for forearm, the other solid for hand hold.

The inside of the targe usually padded with straw, covered by hide, or in cases noted during the Jacobite rebellions, some actually had the red material taken from 'redcoats' uniforms.

These targes were taken after Culloden and dismantled as part of the proscriptions of arms. Many of the boards were indeed used as lids for various urns and household uses.

Original examples are understandably rare, but exist mostly in private clan holdings or museums.
It does not seem that metal examples were used for actual combat, but the baronial parlor decor in Victorian times during the Scottish trends might be appreciated in displays.

There is a reference, "Highland Targets and Other Shields" by James Drummond (1875) which I believe has been reprinted.

[urbanspaceman]

I acquired this targe in with a collection of swords I bought.
I remember reading somewhere (can't remember where) that this was made by an acknowledged reproduction expert sometime in the 1960s.
Can anyone tell me anything about it please?
Sorry I hijacked your thread but it seemed opportune.

[Peter Hudson]

https://www.google.com/search?q=Scot...nWCRGM6lk,st:0

Just click on the above for a video presentation of a proper Scottish Targe... After the 1746 Battle of Culloden these were made illegal .

Peter Hudson

[urbanspaceman]

Thanks Peter.

[Battara]

Link is not working for me.

[Peter Hudson]

Link is working OK

https://www.google.com/search?q=Scot...nWCRGM6lk,st:0

Peter Hudson

[urbanspaceman]

The link doesn't work on my phone but it works fine on my desktop.
Don't know why.