13th century sword - Swiss made?

[Cesare]

Ciao a tutti
Sottopongo agli amici del forum questa spada con la lama rotta.
Ha due marchi in argento, uno per lato.
Il primo è una croce con bracci uguali. Secondo Musciarelli, nel suo libro "dizionario delle armi", è il marchio di uno spadaio svizzero del 13° secolo (vedi foto - marchio n° 39).
Il secondo, una "S" in un cerchio è per me sconosciuto.
Qualcuno è in grado di aiutarmi ad identificarlo?
Molte grazie

a presto
Cesare

Hello everyone
I submit to the friends of this forum a sword with broken blade.
It has two silver marks, one on each side
The first is a cross with equal arms. According to Musciarelli, in his book "Dictionary of arms," is the mark of a Swiss swordsmith of 13th century (see photo - mark No. 39).
The second, an "S" in a circle is unknown to me.
Someone can help me to identify it?
Many thanks

Soon
Cesare

[Henk]

Cesare,

No comments at all on this one. It is not my field at all. I searched in some books to find marks, but unfortunately i cann't assist you.

If i look at the pictures it seems to me the marks are in a remarkable good condition. Too good in my opinion for a sword with that age.

I hope with this two cents opinion from me the more knowledgeable members will jump in.

Is the tip really broken? If so, some good close ups of the break could give some more information. Or is the tip not broken but is this an executioner sword?

[machinist]

I have nothing to add but this is beautiful and I enjoy your posts, Cesare.

Donald

[Valjhun]

Belissima spada, Cesare!

I don't think that is an executioner sword, as the earliest known specifically designed executioner's swords dates to the mid 16th century. In the middle ages, decapitations were executed with regular swords or axes.

Can I ask you from wich book have you posed the photo?

Grazie.

[Jim McDougall]

This seems like an Oakeshott Xa, brazil nut pommel mid 10th into late 11th century. The brazil nut more common in Central and Eastern Europe.
While Gyngell and clearly others (as noted here by Cesare) have associated this 'cross potent' (kruckenkruez, crutch cross) with suggestion of a Swiss maker c.1200, this cross was in my opinion, not a makers mark, nor restricted to Switzerland nor that time period.

These crosses were applied to sword blades, often with inscriptions, and typically invocations intended to offer talismanic protection. The practice of placing crosses on sword blades and scabbards dates much farther back.

The 'S' is another thing entirely, and may indeed be a production related mark, while quite possibly another religiously associated symbolic. The use of silver seems quite unusual, as usually these marks were inlain with iron or latten, and as noted the condition of the silver does not seem commensurate with the well aged sword overall. Perhaps the existing marks were inlaid with silver later?

[Cesare]

Originally Posted by Henk

Cesare,

Is the tip really broken? If so, some good close ups of the break could give some more information. Or is the tip not broken but is this an executioner sword?

Ecco le foto al microscopio digitale. è realmente una frattura avvenuta all'epoca. Infatti, le superfici di frattura hanno lo stesso livello di corrosione della lama.

Here are the photos to digital microscope. Is really a fracture and occurred at the time. In fact, the fracture surfaces have the same level of corrosion of the blade.

[Cesare]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

This seems like an Oakeshott Xa, brazil nut pommel mid 10th into late 11th century. The brazil nut more common in Central and Eastern Europe.
While Gyngell and clearly others (as noted here by Cesare) have associated this 'cross potent' (kruckenkruez, crutch cross) with suggestion of a Swiss maker c.1200, this cross was in my opinion, not a makers mark, nor restricted to Switzerland nor that time period.

These crosses were applied to sword blades, often with inscriptions, and typically invocations intended to offer talismanic protection. The practice of placing crosses on sword blades and scabbards dates much farther back.

The 'S' is another thing entirely, and may indeed be a production related mark, while quite possibly another religiously associated symbolic. The use of silver seems quite unusual, as usually these marks were inlain with iron or latten, and as noted the condition of the silver does not seem commensurate with the well aged sword overall. Perhaps the existing marks were inlaid with silver later?

Credo sia necessario che descriva sinteticamente la storia della fortezza.
Fu costruita nella prima metà del 1200 e le guerre iniziarono nella seconda metà del 13°secolo.
Pertanto le armi ritrovate nei pressi della fortezza sono state usate non prima. Tuttavia potrebbero aver usato armi costruite precedentemente. Non dimentichiamo che le armi e in particolare le spade, erano molto costose e non venivano dismesse perché passate di moda.
Pertanto potrebbe essere una spada costruita prima della costruzione della fortezza.
Penso tu abbia ragione sui marchi. Forse la spada proviene dal sud Europa (attuale sud Germania e Austria) e il vero marchio dello spadaio potrebbe essere la "S" in cerchio.(Musciarelli a volte non è molto attendibile)
Comunque, l'uso di metallo prezioso sulle lame di spada non è poi così raro. Molti marchi e decorazioni che ho trovato sulle lame di spade e pugnali del museo sono in argento e persino oro.

grazie
Cesare
I believe it is necessary for summarizing the history of the fortress.
It was built in the first half of 1200 and the wars began in the second half of the 13th century.
Therefore, the weapons found near the fort were not used before. They could however have used weapons made previously. Do not forget that the weapons and swords in particular, were very expensive and would not be abandoned because out of fashion.

I think you're right on the mark. Maybe the sword is from the south of Europe (now southern Germany and Austria) and the true mark of the swordsmith could be the "S" in a circle. (Musciarelli, sometimes is not very reliable)
However, the use of precious metal on the blade of the sword is not so rare. Many marks and decorations that I found on the blades of swords and daggers of the museum are silver and even gold inlaid.

thanks
Cerare

[cornelistromp]

HI Cesare,

it can be classified as an Oakeshott type XI (Jim,sometimes swords can classified in more then one type however type X is broader and has a wide and shallow fuller, type XI is more valid here ) and it can be dated 1050-1150.

This was a long sword because with this type 2/3 of the blade has parallel edges and approx. 1/4 is missing (blade length around 90cm would be proper for this sword)

the inlaid mark in silver looks authentic most of the inlays in type XI swords are in silver!
Oakeshott published in the sword in the age of chivalry about this type of s-mark found in type XI swords.
quote"most common are tiny silver or latten inlays OSO or SOS; nearly as common is an S enclosed within an O unquote" (pag142 )
the meaning of SOS is probably Sancta o (maria) Sancta. (oakeshott roms)
The same mark however in brass is on a sword published in records of the medieval sword XIIa.4 page 93!

The cross potent has been widely used and has nothing to do with Switzerland.

the pommel is a nice and bulky Brazil nut and of a oakeshott type B or Petersen X.
it seems mostly found on swords which can be dated between 1050-1150.
(cf Oakeshott pag 93 tsitaoc)

regards
HI Cesare,

esso può essere classificato come un tipo di Oakeshott XI (Jim, a volte le spade può classificati in più di un tipo però di tipo X è più ampio e dispone di un ampia gamma e poco profondo, tipo XI è più valido qui) e può essere datato 1050-1150.

Questa è stata una lunga spada, perché con questo tipo 2 / 3 della lama ha bordi paralleli e ca. 1 / 4 è mancante (circa 90 centimetri di lunghezza lama sarebbe appropriato per questa spada)

il marchio intarsiati in argento aspetto più autentico degli intarsi nel tipo spade XI sono in argento!
Oakeshott pubblicato nella spada nella età della cavalleria su questo tipo di s-marchio trovato nel tipo spade XI.
quota "più comuni sono piccoli o lamierino argento intarsi OSO o SOS, quasi come comune è un S racchiuso in un unquote O" (pag142)
il significato di SOS è probabilmente O Sancta (Maria) Sancta. (Roms Oakeshott)
Il marchio stesso, però è in ottone su una spada pubblicato nei registri della pagina di spada medievale XIIa.4 93!

Il potente croce è stato ampiamente utilizzato e non ha nulla a che fare con la Svizzera.

il pomo è un dado bello e ingombrante Brasile e di un tipo di Oakeshott B o Petersen X.
appare più che trovato su spade che può essere datato tra il 1050-1150.
(Cfr pag 93 Oakeshott tsitaoc)

per quanto riguarda

[BerberDagger]

Ciao Cesare,

qui un dettaglio di una S simile ma in più cattive condizioni , da una spada del periodo della I crociata circa 1100 della Germania del sud.

Saluti


Hi at all ,

here a photo of a similar S silver mark on a I° Crusader sword type dated to 1100 circa . It is south german .

Regards

[cornelistromp]

Cesare,

Can you tell if the inlays are made from twisted strips, if you look closely can you see diagonal lines in the inlay?

best,

Cesare,

Si può sapere se gli intarsi sono realizzati da nastri intrecciati, se si guarda attentamente si può vedere linee diagonali nel intarsio?

meglio,

[Cesare]

Originally Posted by cornelistromp

Cesare,

Can you tell if the inlays are made from twisted strips, if you look closely can you see diagonal lines in the inlay?

best,

Cesare,

Si può sapere se gli intarsi sono realizzati da nastri intrecciati, se si guarda attentamente si può vedere linee diagonali nel intarsio?

meglio,

E' difficile da dire. Il restauro potrebbe aver alterato la superficie dell'agemina. Ecco una foto fatta col microscopio digitale a circa 100 ingrandimenti.

it's hard to say. The restoration may have altered the surface of the inlay. Here is a photo taken with a digital microscope at about 100 magnifications.

[cornelistromp]

Hi,

it is difficult to see, but looks like the flat wide ring is made out of a (twisted) strip, this is an early inlay technique the twisted stripes were hammered in the slots when the blade was stil hot however under melting point of 960C.
in the case of silver.(Viking swords do have the same technique of inlays with iron strips.)

A nice detail is that the point is broken off and not rotten away! also the dark black goethite patina points at a conservation in water.
I think this is a water find.?!?
The "handwriting" of the S can be found on same type XI swords dating all around 1100.The sword is much older then the fortress and difficult to link to any battle.

regards fom holland

Ciao,

è difficile da vedere, ma sembra che l'anello ampio appartamento è composto da una (twisted) striscia, si tratta di una tecnica dell'intarsio presto le strisce erano contorti martellate nelle fessure, quando la lama era stil caldo però sotto il punto di fusione di 960C.
nel caso di argento. (spade Viking hanno la stessa tecnica di intarsi con le strisce di ferro.)

Un dettaglio interessante è che il punto è rotto e non marcio via! anche al buio nero patina punti goethite a una conservazione in acqua.
Penso che questo è un acqua a trovare.?!?
La "scrittura" della S si possono trovare sul spade stesso tipo XI datazione intorno spada 1100.The è molto più vecchio allora la fortezza e difficile da collegare a qualsiasi battaglia.

per quanto riguarda holland fom

[Cesare]

[QUOTE=cornelistromp]Hi,

it is difficult to see, but looks like the flat wide ring is made out of a (twisted) strip, this is an early inlay technique the twisted stripes were hammered in the slots when the blade was stil hot however under melting point of 960C.
in the case of silver.(Viking swords do have the same technique of inlays with iron strips.)

A nice detail is that the point is broken off and not rotten away! also the dark black goethite patina points at a conservation in water.
I think this is a water find.?!?
The "handwriting" of the S can be found on same type XI swords dating all around 1100.The sword is much older then the fortress and difficult to link to any battle.

regards fom holland

Thanks for the help
As soon as I return to the museum I will do more pictures with digital microscope.
I hope to be more detailed.
I agree with you and other friends of the forum on the dating of the sword.
Probably (in my opinion) is a "weapon of family", handed down from father to son. and ended badly in the battles of the 13th century, near the fortess.

Regards
Cesare

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you so much Cornelis! Absolutely outstanding and detailed description, and for clarifying these. My knowledge on this field is admittedly limited, and I feel lucky to have gotten that close in the hours of research before I wrote my post!!
The main thing here is learning, and its great to have this distinctly pertinant information. Very good points on the classification transcending the categories as with transition and varying makers preferences or styles, we can only broadly presume the closest application in many cases.

Regarding the marks, it is true that there is probably a great deal of unreliability in all of the resources on these as the groupings are of course compendiums taken from attributed examples presumed from certain dates and places. While many have more documented support than others, many are simply assumed, like the cross assumed a makers mark.

The information on the S is excellent, and great information on the use of silver inlay!!!

Cesare, thank you for these great entries, and please keep them coming
It really is a wonderful way to learn, from these wonderful pieces of history found in situ there in Italy.

All the best,
Jim

[cornelistromp]

[QUOTE=Jim McDougall]Thank you so much Cornelis! Absolutely outstanding and detailed description, and for clarifying these. My knowledge on this field is admittedly limited, and I feel lucky to have gotten that close in the hours of research before I wrote my post!!

Hi Jim,
this is a yoke, there is nobody I know in the field (and that are a lot of people) with your wide orientated amount of knowledge of antique arms.
Concerning early swords ,as you know, there is only 1 theory/work of classification that makes us understand the shape of a sword in a period and the reason for that shape.for a quick refresh-course in a day; there is a splendid book from oakeshott "sword in hand" (absolutely his best work) a series of articles originally published in Gun report magazine.

kind regards from Holland

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you for such kind words Cornelis! and thank you for the heads up on the Oakeshott articles. I dont have my other books by him on hand, but when on this subject material by him is by far the best for quick study to get up to speed. He has an easy to read, interpretive style which makes it often seem as if he is just talking to you in a conversation.

All the very best,
Jim

[Matchlock]

My expert friend Ottmar assigns this knightly sword to ca. 1250, the blade probably being broken during battle. It is of Italian type, the marks cannot be any better identified as has been expertly done here.

Best,
Michael