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#1 |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 10
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hi,
In first, sorry my poor english...I own this helmet - I suppose it's german - and I need to identify marks. M on the nasal and :: / :: what's this last marking ? Thank s in advance for your help. - Last edited by fernando; 11th March 2017 at 12:00 PM. |
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#2 |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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Hi Francois,
You must read the forum rules; linking photos from web hosts (hot links) is not the adequate procedure. This time i will save them to a hard disk and upload them back with the forum attachment features; something you will have to do yourself next time. I will also move this thread to the Europen section, where it is better placed. |
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#3 |
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 10
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oh sorry Fernando. Next time, I'll try to respect the rules.
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#4 |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
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Location: Portugal
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That's fine, François
![]() Let us see what the members have to say about your 'lobster tail' helmet. |
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#5 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 385
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Hello François,
You have a nice and original lobster tail helmet there , as every part seems to have the 4 dots I think they are simply markings used by the armory to mark parts that were made to fit together for induvidual helmets. kind regards Ulfberth |
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#6 | |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
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Thank you for always adding these observations as it really helps to know what to look for in these items. While the books can tell us a lot on history and typology etc. they seldom give us these often almost nuanced clues on authentication. |
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#7 |
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 10
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Thank's Ulfberth for your answer
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#8 |
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Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 214
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What Ulfbert said. These helmets were made in large quantities and in order to keep the plates for each one of a set together this sort of matched punching was sometimes used. There was a second punch method used where it was sequential used to keep plates of an assembly ( usually arms or legs ) in their proper order where some of the plates look similar in sequence. I've owned examples of both over the years and used both punch methods when I used to make armour for a living.
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#9 |
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Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 385
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Thanks for the kind words Jim and Senefelder,
Good and complete lobster tail helmets or zischagge's are very hard to find. Most of them have replaced cheek peaces or nasal bars, that does not mean that helmets with restored parts are no good, of course they are if the buyer is OK with it. As for the stamps on the parts as on this example this seem more the exception than a rule, but it sure does ad character and history to this nice helmet. kind regards Ulfbert |
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#10 |
Arms Historian
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In the thread recently posted, 'a siege weight helmet', I came across the outstanding article in Park Lane Arms Fair, Spring 2005 journal, "What Do Armourers Marks Mean? by Chris Dobson, master armourer.
This article addresses these practices in detail and presents a fascinating look at the systems of stamps and numbering armourers used, giving us insight into these many punched dots, squiggles and other curious marks. |
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#11 |
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Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 385
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Hi Jim,
that is most interesting information you have found there, what does it say ? or can you post it ? kind regards Ulfberth |
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#12 | |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
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#13 |
Arms Historian
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Guys, I was remiss in not adding this, and simply citing the article for the reference for future research of others. I am quite frankly not very adept (actually quite Luddite) at technical matters, thus often hesitant at adding links etc.
In this case, the article was not online, but in a physical copy I had here, and my wife and I were trying to scan it to post. We made a number of tries with files too large , but finally got this so hope it reads OK. I am very grateful for the detailed and thorough material you guys and so many here on these pages tirelessly add (Fernando especially your very helpful translations from your resources). I am trying to get better at this so I can add material quid pro quo. Here is the article by Mr. Dobson, from the London Arms Fair, Spring 2005. |
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#14 |
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Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 385
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Thank's Jim,
that's great documentation that I have not seen before. It shows the exact 4 struck point mark like on francois helmet ! kind regards Ulberth |
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#15 |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
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Location: Portugal
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Thanks for the excelent gift, Jim.
Your'e a good man ![]() |
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#16 |
Arms Historian
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
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Thanks guys! I'm glad I found this article and that it so well supports what we learned here from Ulfberth and Alan about this practice! Its great learning new things and getting perspective on armor.
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