Santa comes late

[Gavin Nugent]

Hello guys and girls, Santa seemed to get lost on his way from the north pole, took him 3 weeks to find my home...all's well that ends well.

[CourseEight]

Nice!

[Gavin Nugent]

Thank you CourseEight, I too have enjoyed looking through your Christmas stocking, very nice and unusual array.

Gav

[CourseEight]

Thanks! I'm not too well-versed as far as yours are concerned. Spanish/Mediteranean? I'd love to read of walkthrough of exactly what you have there.

[Gavin Nugent]

Hello again CourseEight, you are correct on both counts, I bought these out of the USA into Australia recently. I was considering onselling a couple of these, but now having them on my desk I am unsure.

The top image is a typical knife/dagger from Albacete Spain with a double edged blade of just under 20cms, brass and bone handle with a simple steel cross guard, am guessing late 1900s.

The second image is a gorgeous little razor sharp knife from the Canary Islands, I had no idea about the origins of this knife until I emailed a fellow Forumite here in Viking Sword, Chris Evans informed me of it's origins. I am particularly taken by the amazing wire inlay in the handle and the overall quality of the knife in general, it can't be seen in the photo, but there is a small engraving present on one side that looks to be a series of small dots forming a pattern, upon obtaining this knife I would now certainly buy more given the chance.

The third photo if of an Italian dagger/Stiletto that dates from about 1750-1800. The wooden or horn handle, I can't tell which almost seems fossilised or petrified it is that old, It still retains some of it's end cap although the rest of the brass that would have enshrouded the top 10mm of the handle has long since gone, only the recess where it once was is now present.

The fourth and fifth photo is why I bought this collection of knives. It is a very rare Italian/Roman brass handled folder with silver medallions. Open it measures 45cms long, dating to about 1860, is razor sharp and gorgeous to behold, I would love many more examples of this knife buy they are hard to find. the handle is very battered and against some suggestions, I am considering giving this piece a full restoration.

Thanks for your interest.

Gav

[Chris Evans]

Gavin,

As already discussed by e-mail, very nice pieces.

Question: Does your Italian folder's handle have a wooden core?

Cheers
Chris

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Chris, the handle of the folder only has a timber support at the hinge pivot, about 20mm and the rest of the handle is totally hollow. I do wish they made them with full wooden cores, it would have given them more strength the withstand the ravishes of time

regards

Gav

[Chris Evans]

Hi Gavin

Originally Posted by freebooter

Hi Chris, the handle of the folder only has a timber support at the hinge pivot, about 20mm and the rest of the handle is totally hollow. I do wish they made them with full wooden cores, it would have given them more strength the withstand the ravishes of time

Yes, that is how the Italians made most of theirs. The Spanish ones that I have seen, all had a wood core right through. But you are right about a wooden core imparting more strength against dents.

Re your Canary Island Naife: I found this Spanish page, which you can translate with Babel or similar. It mentions that the term `naife' is a corruption of the English 'knife'! http://www.terra.es/personal8/jlmmor...s-canarios.htm

This link gives a very detailed account of how they are made: http://armasblancas.mforos.com/933156/5569293-naifes/

Cheers
Chris

[Gavin Nugent]

Hi Chris, as usual you provide very good insight into the culters industry with great links.

All the best

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

I nearly forgot Chris, with your experience with metal, what light can you shed on the old process these old cutlers used for "tempering" of the handle of these brass handled knives. I know much of the light guage brass sheet metal I have used over the years is too flimsy to be of any benefit of a knife handle, what is it that they have done to add strength to these handles.

regards

Gavin

[Chris Evans]

Hi Gavin,

Originally Posted by freebooter

I nearly forgot Chris, with your experience with metal, what light can you shed on the old process these old cutlers used for "tempering" of the handle of these brass handled knives. I know much of the light guage brass sheet metal I have used over the years is too flimsy to be of any benefit of a knife handle, what is it that they have done to add strength to these handles.

I am not sure if I understand your question, but it appears that you would like to know how brass sheet of a given thickness can be strengthened. If so, here it goes:

Brass used by cutlers, gains strength by cold working (hammering, rolling etc) and loses it by being heated (annealed).

Brass sheet, rod and wire is sold in various hardness grades. The hardest and strongest being severely work hardened, whilst the softest and weakest is annealed. As the brass is worked, it gains strength in proportion to the deformation induced by the process.

The trick is to start out with the highest temper that will be able to take the anticipated working. Start out with one that is too hard and the piece will crack. Too soft and it will not be sufficiently strong for the application.
This guessing game can sometimes be simplified by choosing a softer temper and compensating for any lack of strength by increasing thickness or diameter.

As for the old cutlers of the 18th and 19th century, I am not sure how they obtained their brass sheets. I imagine that some may have rolled their own, whilst others must have bought it from a supplier. Be this as it may, the above principles applied then as today.

Cheers
Chris

[fernando]

Hi Gav
You can thank Father Christmas for those nice pieces.
Concerning the cuchilo Canario ( naife ), could you show us a close up picture of that dot engraving on the blade ?
You might as well check if there are any small marks struck on the blade back, right after the ferule, like combinations of X an I. In an early period, the smiths used to mark the blades with such symbols, representing family marks.
Fernando

[Gavin Nugent]

I will try to get a photo when the sun shines a little more here. As for the "X" and "I", you are right, the is what looks like X's and I's, I too will get a photo up here soon.

Thanks

Gav

[Gavin Nugent]

Photos as requested. I look forward to hearing more about this superb knife.

thanks

Gavin

[fernando]

I forgot that it is daylight in Australia at this moment
Others will tell you about the dot marks ... i confess i didn't know such procedure until now ... was just curious.
But the marks on the blade back are surely old ( family ) makers marks.
Look at my piece, as another example.

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks for highlighting these points of interest. Is there any one within this forum who can reveal more on the family markings of these knives, if information is available, perhaps they can be posted both here and in Jim's postings regarding trade markings as well to get a broader overview of this era in knife/sword making history.

many thanks

Gavin

[carlos]

CONGRATULATIONS, THERE ARE A GOOD PIECES OF SPANISH ARMS AND ITALIAN. IHAVE THIS LINKS TO NAIFE KNIVES ( CANARY ISLANDS KNIVES )

http://www.pardelera.com/Webnaife/

http://www.infonortedigital.com/publ...es/docs/76.pdf

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by freebooter

Thanks for highlighting these points of interest. Is there any one within this forum who can reveal more on the family markings of these knives, if information is available, perhaps they can be posted both here and in Jim's postings regarding trade markings as well to get a broader overview of this era in knife/sword making history.

many thanks

Gavin

Hi Gav,
Thank you so much for suggesting posting this on the thread on markings! I was just thinking that as I read the thread and then saw your post.
It's really interesting that these marks on the back of the blade are somewhat like the back of some SE Asian weapons, which was just mentioned on the thread on marking of weapons:anthropologically and sociologically ( geez I need a shorter title!) . Anyway, it seems on the SE Asian weapons these marks might be tribal and possibly even, as this, family identifying.

All very best regards,
Jim

[Gavin Nugent]

Thanks Carlos,

I am very impressed with these links, I will have to study the PDF file a bit closer but I upon a quick look I could not see this knife listed, maybe you can identify it a bit quicker?

Jim, always happy to help where I can, not that I want to wish my working life away but I do often wish I was retired so I could find much more time to offer up more info that I have available for posts. All in good time I guess, as the Balinese say, softly slowly catch the monkey.

All the best forumites

Gav