Need opinions on walrus ivory slabs

ariel · 27th March 2019, 11:31 PM

Help me out.
Recently. I read in a publication that Persian shamshir handle slabs made out of walrus ivory were classically installed with the smooth cementum and primary dentin adjacent to the tang and with the "oatmeal-like" secondary dentin on the outside. Allegedly, the " oatmeal" structure was considered to be beneficial to the sword owner for some sacral reasons..
Further, the author stated that the frequently found reverse position of the slabs ( "oatmeal" inside) is a sure sign of late replacement.
I could never find any supportive reference to this statement.
Anybody saw or heard something to confirm it?

Kubur · 27th March 2019, 11:35 PM

Hi Ariel,

I think it's true but not everywhere.
In Iran for sure, i have a dagger like this (secondary dentine) and I've seen many examples.
In the Ottoman world I'm not sure about this statement...

ariel · 28th March 2019, 12:57 AM

Yes, we do see examples of the "oatmeal" side on the outside.
But I am not talking about single examples here or there: I am asking whether there was a systematic, traditional, old way. Any sources to confirm or reject the statement of the author?
I am plainly ignorant about that and want to learn something.. Personally, I think that it depended on the piece of tusk.

I have two Balkan yataghans with massive ears: the primary dentin is the grip, the ears have secondary dentin inside and primary dentin around it: the master needed a whole-thickness tusk to form massive ears.

But shamshirs have slender grips, they could slabs positioned either way.

And here comes the rub:
Was there a "right" way for a slab?

I am waxing poetic:-)))

Ren Ren · 28th March 2019, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Help me out.
Recently. I read in a publication that Persian shamshir handle slabs made out of walrus ivory were classically installed with the smooth cementum and primary dentin adjacent to the tang and with the "oatmeal-like" secondary dentin on the outside. Allegedly, the " oatmeal" structure was considered to be beneficial to the sword owner for some sacral reasons..
Further, the author stated that the frequently found reverse position of the slabs ( "oatmeal" inside) is a sure sign of late replacement.

There is an alternative version. In Iran and India, where walrus tusks were valued higher than elephant fangs, the masters tried to demonstrate the inner part of the dentin. Because the inner part of the tusk indicates that it belonged to the walrus. In the Caucasus, they did the opposite, demonstrated the external part. Because there were no walrus tusks in short supply.

ariel · 29th March 2019, 12:21 AM

Nice hypothesis.
But I would note the following:

1. Walrus ivory was imported directly to Persia from Shirvan( Baku) and Astrakhan . The latter was also augmented by Indian traders who maintained large permanent missions there and then re-sold furs and walrus ivory to Iran. Thus, there was no scarcity of this material in Persia as witnessed by multiple examples of sword and dagger handles.

2. Examination of shamshirs from large collections shows very high proportion of the “oatmeal inside” slabs. See Khorasani’s book, Polish collections, Hales’ book, Kamil Khaidakov’s book “ Persian sabers”, catalogues of large auctions etc. Does it mean that all such handles went through restoration?
And that leads us to the next question:
3. If the traditional old ( sacral?) scheme was “ oatmeal outside”, why would not restorers maintain it? Why would they, according to the assertion of the author of that hypothesis, have suddenly and en masse put the slabs in reverse? After all, technically it would have been just as easy to maintain traditional order.

27th March 2019, 11:31 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Need opinions on walrus ivory slabs Help me out. Recently. I read in a publication that Persian shamshir handle slabs made out of walrus ivory were classically installed with the smooth cementum and primary dentin adjacent to the tang and with the "oatmeal-like" secondary dentin on the outside. Allegedly, the " oatmeal" structure was considered to be beneficial to the sword owner for some sacral reasons.. Further, the author stated that the frequently found reverse position of the slabs ( "oatmeal" inside) is a sure sign of late replacement. I could never find any supportive reference to this statement. Anybody saw or heard something to confirm it? Attached Images Last edited by ariel; 28th March 2019 at 12:13 AM.

27th March 2019, 11:35 PM	#2
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Ariel, I think it's true but not everywhere. In Iran for sure, i have a dagger like this (secondary dentine) and I've seen many examples. In the Ottoman world I'm not sure about this statement...

28th March 2019, 12:57 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Yes, we do see examples of the "oatmeal" side on the outside. But I am not talking about single examples here or there: I am asking whether there was a systematic, traditional, old way. Any sources to confirm or reject the statement of the author? I am plainly ignorant about that and want to learn something.. Personally, I think that it depended on the piece of tusk. I have two Balkan yataghans with massive ears: the primary dentin is the grip, the ears have secondary dentin inside and primary dentin around it: the master needed a whole-thickness tusk to form massive ears. But shamshirs have slender grips, they could slabs positioned either way. And here comes the rub: Was there a "right" way for a slab? I am waxing poetic:-)))

29th March 2019, 12:21 AM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Nice hypothesis. But I would note the following: 1. Walrus ivory was imported directly to Persia from Shirvan( Baku) and Astrakhan . The latter was also augmented by Indian traders who maintained large permanent missions there and then re-sold furs and walrus ivory to Iran. Thus, there was no scarcity of this material in Persia as witnessed by multiple examples of sword and dagger handles. 2. Examination of shamshirs from large collections shows very high proportion of the “oatmeal inside” slabs. See Khorasani’s book, Polish collections, Hales’ book, Kamil Khaidakov’s book “ Persian sabers”, catalogues of large auctions etc. Does it mean that all such handles went through restoration? And that leads us to the next question: 3. If the traditional old ( sacral?) scheme was “ oatmeal outside”, why would not restorers maintain it? Why would they, according to the assertion of the author of that hypothesis, have suddenly and en masse put the slabs in reverse? After all, technically it would have been just as easy to maintain traditional order.