poll - publishing the forum

Rivkin · 12th June 2006, 06:01 AM

Dear All,

Recently a lot of new ideas were proposed in the "Publishing the Forum". I am sorry for taking the initiative, but since it seems we arrived to some sort of a conclusion in this thread it may be wise to poll the public.

All of the proposed options are initially do not require any significant investment, i.e. intended for www publication only.

I think we will not have problems finding volunteers to lend help with the publication.

A. G. Maisey · 12th June 2006, 08:36 AM

I do not support the concept of electronic publication, or re-publication of material that can be found elsewhere in threads or by the use of a search function.

I do support the concept of an electronic journal to which writings may be submitted, those writings to be reviewed by a select panel prior to acceptance. In other words, an electronic version of the journals of learned societies.Such a journal could be managed in such a way that it could have real value and substance, and just as the journals of learned societies are forwarded to museums and other institutes across the world, this journal of the Forum could also be circulated widely.

drdavid · 12th June 2006, 09:28 AM

The world of peer reviewed journals is moving more and more to electronic publication. I am on the editorial board of one scientific journal and review and produce invited contributions for others. All are now available in both hard and electronic form. The chief editor of one of these told me recently that they did not expect to be producing a 'hard copy' beyond the next 5 years.

IMHO the idea of publishing bits of this forum probably has little merit due to the difficulties mentioned in the previous thread and the accessibility of the information in the archives. The concept of a peer reviewed journal is good, although running such an animal is time and resource consuming.

DrD

A. G. Maisey · 12th June 2006, 10:07 AM

Perhaps not so time consuming.

Resource cost?

I have no idea.

I doubt that every Forum member would want to rush into print every month or so. Quality papers and articles take quality time to research and write. Australia`s most esteemed society of antique arms collectors has some notable people amongst its members, but the Society constantly has difficulty in getting articles to publish in its journal, even though that journal is now only published occasionally. I think there is one due at the moment, but it would be , I think, three years since the previous one.

For a Forum sponsored journal,a select panel could review submissions prior to publication , and publication would be subject to panel approval.

Where a rejection occurred the panel could provide guidelines and recommendations to assist with approval upon resubmission.

I feel that since the standard would be a little higher than the casual exchange of ideas that occurs in any Forum setting, the volume of submissions would not be high, but because people would (hopefully) wish to be published, the standard of the articles accepted for publication could be expected to be relatively high.

I do not believe the work load would be great, but I have absolutely no idea what provision of web space might cost.

Possibly the greatest negative factor would be the possibility of giving offence by rejection, or because of recommendations made to assist republication. Not everybody is always open to criticism, no matter how well intentioned this criticism may be.

Rivkin · 12th June 2006, 04:34 PM

Ok, I am sorry, but I thought that the poll option number 4 (sorry for previous mistake in this post - it was "3", but in should be _4_) is essentially "publishing a normal journal".

Mark · 12th June 2006, 05:33 PM

While the pole is a nice idea to gauge interest, the likelihood that there will be a forum-sponsored publication is a bit slim (except perhaps of the Timonium seminar procedings).

For various reasons I think it is best to let this idea rest for a little while. The discussion has been great so far, and personally, I have every intention to follow up on it when the timing is a bit better (so don't worry about the idea fading altogether).

fearn · 12th June 2006, 06:11 PM

My 2 cents:

I would like to see the proceedings of the Timonium seminars somewhere (since I haven't gotten to one yet), and I would like to be able to read articles that are generated from threads here (for obvious reasons). Beyond that, I don't see a need to publish. Basically, the forum is already a) public, b) searchable, and c) of mixed quality.

This last is not a jab at the real experts here (and I'm not counting myself). It's simply that there are many wrong guesses, disagreements, and outright puzzlement in this forum. We're still learning, after all. While I suspect that this forum would be a great case study in how a group of people collectively answer puzzles, I think that uncritical publication of various threads would provide more confusion than information.

One other question: would the publications be open and free (as the articles are currently), or would there be a charge (As for scientific journal articles)?

F

VANDOO · 12th June 2006, 09:48 PM

I AGREE WITH ALAN MAISEYS SUGGESTIONS AND THINK IT SHOULD ONLY BE ELECTRONIC AND SET UP AS A SORT OF CONDENSED REVIEWED ARCHIVE. IT SHOULD BE REVIEWED AND BE IN A FORM THAT CAN BE REVISED IN FUTURE TO CORRECT MISTAKES AND ADD NEW INFORMATION. IF NEEDED THEY COULD PRINT THEIR OWN HARDCOPY. IT SHOULD BE SEPARATE FROM THE DISCUSSIONS AND A DISCLAIMER COULD BE AT THE FIRST TO SAY NO RESPONSIBILITY WILL BE TAKEN FOR THE CONTENT (LAWYERS WOULD KNOW WHY THAT WOULD BE NEEDED I DON'T)

THE PURPOSE OF DOING THIS WOULD BE TO MAKE THE INFORMATION IN THE FORUM MORE EASILY ACCESIBLE, SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO SEARCH THRU MANY POSTS OVER SEVERAL YEARS AND THEN TRY TO ORGANIZE IT EVERY TIME YOU NEED THE INFORMATION. THIS WOULD PRODUCE A GOOD REFRENCE BUT WOULD NOT BE ACCEPTED AS OFFICAL BY ACADEMIC CIRCLES.

THE REASON WOULD BE FOR EXAMPLE, IF A ANCIENT WITCHDOCTOR WROTE A BOOK ON HIS TRIBE AND ITS BELIEFS IT WOULD NOT BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY. BUT IF A NOTED ANTHROPOLIGIST WITH A PHD GOT THE INFORMATION FROM THE SAME WITCHDOCTOR AND WROTE A PAPER ON IT THEN IT WOULD BE ACADEMICALY ACCEPTED.

THATS THE SYSTEM SO PERHAPS IN FUTURE SOMEONE WITH THE PROPER CREDENTIALS MIGHT UTILIZE THE FORUMS RAMBELING POSTS FOR AN OFFICIAL PAPER. IF THE INFORMATION WERE PUT IN ORDER IT WOULD BE EASIER FOR THE PHD'S AS WELL AS THE REST OF US TO ACCESS. THE FACTOR THAT WILL BE THE MOST TROUBLE WOULD BE FINDING PEOPLE WILLING TO COMITT TO DOING THE WORK WHO HAVE THE TIME, ENERGY AND SKILLS TO SEE IT COMPLETED. LEE WOULD ALSO HAVE TO APPROVE AND SHOULD NOT BE EXPECTED TO PUT UP ANY MORE FUNDS OR TIME THAN HE HAS ALREADY HAS AS I AM SURE HE IS A VERY BUSY FELLOW.
PERHAPS NOW WOULD BE A GOOD TIME TO EXPRESS MY APPRECIATION AGAIN FOR ALL LEE JONES AND ARTZI AS WELL AS ALL HELPING WITH THIS FORUM HAVE DONE FOR US ALL, THEY TRULY ARE OUR MENTORS.

MABAGANI · 13th June 2006, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

SO PERHAPS IN FUTURE SOMEONE WITH THE PROPER CREDENTIALS MIGHT UTILIZE THE FORUMS RAMBELING POSTS FOR AN OFFICIAL PAPER

If that were the case, let them swift through all the searches...lolz
but a journal publication would be good if members are ready to take up the challenge of writing on a particular subject

fearn · 13th June 2006, 01:14 AM

Hey Vandoo,

About that crack about witchdoctors....

Speaking as a PhD, I've got a grudging respect for Carlos Castaneda and his ilk. After all, us PhuDdies just get our *&%^ degrees and miserable academic jobs. The publishing witch doctors sell self help books, make a few million bucks, retire to Malibu and collect swords. I'd rather be a witch doctor, meself

Seriously though, I'd suggest that whatever financial issues that surround publishing this forum be treated *very, very* carefully. I don't mind giving my opinion for free, but if someone else is profiting from it unfairly, they should pay me for my input, same as everyone else. Considering how many doctors and lawyers there are on that list, paying everyone for their professional advice on weapons would get prohibitively expensive. This board works because it's free, and we really shouldn't jeopardize it by putting a monetary value on the opinions and images here.

F

VANDOO · 13th June 2006, 03:04 AM

MABAGANI
I FEEL THE SAME WAY ABOUT MAKEING IT TOO EASY FOR THE ACADEMICS WITH A DEGREE HAVEING TO DIG IT OUT THEMSELVES

BUT I HAVE ALWAYS CONSIDERED IT SHORTSIGHTED OF THOSE WHO DISMISS EVERYONE THAT DOES NOT POSESS THE PROPER ACADEMIC CREDENTIALS AS KNOW NOTHINGS. FORTUNATELY NOT ALL ACADEMICS ARE LIKE THAT AND I AM WILLING TO EXCUSE THE FEW THAT ARE AND MAKE THE INFORMATION AND IDEAS AVAILABLE TO ALL. I SURE HAVE MELLOWED WITH AGE

FERN
I DIDN'T MEAN TO IMPLY THAT A PHD WAS NOT WORTHY AS THEY DON'T GIVE THOSE THINGS AWAY FOR FREE (UNLESS THEY ARE HONORARY

) IT REQUIRES SEVERAL YEARS OF HARD WORK AND ENOUGH MONEY FOR A EXCELLENT SWORD COLLECTION TO GET ONE. I DO RESPECT THOSE WHO HAVE WENT THAT EXTRA MILE TO GET ONE. I WAS JUST POKEING FUN AT THE ATTITUDE OF SOME AND THE WAY THINGS ARE DONE. UNFORTUNATELY MOST TRIBAL PEOPLE NEVER PUBLISH ANYTHING IT IS MOST ALWAYS PASSED DOWN VERBALLY. BUT IF THEY DID THEIR CREDENTIALS WOULD BE QUESTIONED BUT IF ONE WITH THE PROPER CREDENTIALS QUESTIONED THEM AND DID THE PAPER IT WOULD BE ACCEPTED.

FORTUNATELY SUCH PAPERS HAVE BEEN DONE OR A LOT OF VALUABLE INFORMATION WOULD HAVE BEEN LOST.
WITCH DOCTORS USED TO HAVE IT MADE THEY HAD EVERYTHING THEY NEEDED TO LIVE AND DID NOT WANT ANYTHING FROM OUTSIDE OF THEIR SOCIETY BUT THAT IS RARE THESE DAYS. IN OUR SOCIETY TODAY YOU WOULD HAVE TO SET UP A PSYCHIC HOTLINE, PEDDLE A MIRACLE NATURAL VITAMIN AND APPEAR ON ALL THE TV TALK SHOWS TO MAKE IT

ITS TOO LATE TO KEEP SOMEONE FROM PROFITING IN A MONETARY WAY FROM THE INFORMATION WE SUPPLY HERE AS MANY USE IT ON EBAY FOR THE ITEMS THEY SELL.

BESIDES SOMEONE MIGHT WRITE A NICE BOOK WITH LOTS OF PICTURES FOR US SOME DAY BASED ON INFORMATION FOUND HERE AND ELSEWHERE. I CAN THINK OF QUITE A FEW AREAS THAT HAVE VERY LITTLE PUBLISHED ESPECIALLY IN ENGLISH BUT ONE CAN ALWAYS HOPE FOR NEW REFRENCES AS MANY OLD ONES ARE NOT AVAILABLE OR TOO EXPENSIVE.

fearn · 13th June 2006, 07:06 AM

Hi Vandoo,

Don't worry about it--I was making fun of the way allegedly well-trained and intelligent people get treated, whether they're witch doctors or PhDs.

You're also right about people profiting from information on this website. I just don't want to see a "best of vikingsword...only $29.95." replacing the search function on the forum.

F

View Poll Results: Do you think we need our own www pubilication?
Yes, only to publish proceeding of Baltimore conference.	3	21.43%
Yes, to publish review articles based on threads and proceedings.	6	42.86%
Yes, but only to display selected past threads with non-relevant information purged out	1	7.14%
Yes, but not only 1 and 2, but also submitted articles	5	35.71%
No, we do not need any extras	1	7.14%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 14. You may not vote on this poll

12th June 2006, 06:01 AM	#1
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	poll - publishing the forum Dear All, Recently a lot of new ideas were proposed in the "Publishing the Forum". I am sorry for taking the initiative, but since it seems we arrived to some sort of a conclusion in this thread it may be wise to poll the public. All of the proposed options are initially do not require any significant investment, i.e. intended for www publication only. I think we will not have problems finding volunteers to lend help with the publication.

12th June 2006, 04:34 PM	#5
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Ok, I am sorry, but I thought that the poll option number 4 (sorry for previous mistake in this post - it was "3", but in should be _4_) is essentially "publishing a normal journal". Last edited by Rivkin; 12th June 2006 at 09:53 PM.

12th June 2006, 08:36 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	I do not support the concept of electronic publication, or re-publication of material that can be found elsewhere in threads or by the use of a search function. I do support the concept of an electronic journal to which writings may be submitted, those writings to be reviewed by a select panel prior to acceptance. In other words, an electronic version of the journals of learned societies.Such a journal could be managed in such a way that it could have real value and substance, and just as the journals of learned societies are forwarded to museums and other institutes across the world, this journal of the Forum could also be circulated widely.

12th June 2006, 09:28 AM	#3
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 371	The world of peer reviewed journals is moving more and more to electronic publication. I am on the editorial board of one scientific journal and review and produce invited contributions for others. All are now available in both hard and electronic form. The chief editor of one of these told me recently that they did not expect to be producing a 'hard copy' beyond the next 5 years. IMHO the idea of publishing bits of this forum probably has little merit due to the difficulties mentioned in the previous thread and the accessibility of the information in the archives. The concept of a peer reviewed journal is good, although running such an animal is time and resource consuming. DrD

12th June 2006, 10:07 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,893	Perhaps not so time consuming. Resource cost? I have no idea. I doubt that every Forum member would want to rush into print every month or so. Quality papers and articles take quality time to research and write. Australia`s most esteemed society of antique arms collectors has some notable people amongst its members, but the Society constantly has difficulty in getting articles to publish in its journal, even though that journal is now only published occasionally. I think there is one due at the moment, but it would be , I think, three years since the previous one. For a Forum sponsored journal,a select panel could review submissions prior to publication , and publication would be subject to panel approval. Where a rejection occurred the panel could provide guidelines and recommendations to assist with approval upon resubmission. I feel that since the standard would be a little higher than the casual exchange of ideas that occurs in any Forum setting, the volume of submissions would not be high, but because people would (hopefully) wish to be published, the standard of the articles accepted for publication could be expected to be relatively high. I do not believe the work load would be great, but I have absolutely no idea what provision of web space might cost. Possibly the greatest negative factor would be the possibility of giving offence by rejection, or because of recommendations made to assist republication. Not everybody is always open to criticism, no matter how well intentioned this criticism may be.

12th June 2006, 05:33 PM	#6
Mark Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 987	While the pole is a nice idea to gauge interest, the likelihood that there will be a forum-sponsored publication is a bit slim (except perhaps of the Timonium seminar procedings). For various reasons I think it is best to let this idea rest for a little while. The discussion has been great so far, and personally, I have every intention to follow up on it when the timing is a bit better (so don't worry about the idea fading altogether).

12th June 2006, 06:11 PM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	My 2 cents: I would like to see the proceedings of the Timonium seminars somewhere (since I haven't gotten to one yet), and I would like to be able to read articles that are generated from threads here (for obvious reasons). Beyond that, I don't see a need to publish. Basically, the forum is already a) public, b) searchable, and c) of mixed quality. This last is not a jab at the real experts here (and I'm not counting myself). It's simply that there are many wrong guesses, disagreements, and outright puzzlement in this forum. We're still learning, after all. While I suspect that this forum would be a great case study in how a group of people collectively answer puzzles, I think that uncritical publication of various threads would provide more confusion than information. One other question: would the publications be open and free (as the articles are currently), or would there be a charge (As for scientific journal articles)? F

12th June 2006, 09:48 PM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AGREE WITH ALAN MAISEYS SUGGESTIONS AND THINK IT SHOULD ONLY BE ELECTRONIC AND SET UP AS A SORT OF CONDENSED REVIEWED ARCHIVE. IT SHOULD BE REVIEWED AND BE IN A FORM THAT CAN BE REVISED IN FUTURE TO CORRECT MISTAKES AND ADD NEW INFORMATION. IF NEEDED THEY COULD PRINT THEIR OWN HARDCOPY. IT SHOULD BE SEPARATE FROM THE DISCUSSIONS AND A DISCLAIMER COULD BE AT THE FIRST TO SAY NO RESPONSIBILITY WILL BE TAKEN FOR THE CONTENT (LAWYERS WOULD KNOW WHY THAT WOULD BE NEEDED I DON'T) THE PURPOSE OF DOING THIS WOULD BE TO MAKE THE INFORMATION IN THE FORUM MORE EASILY ACCESIBLE, SO YOU DON'T HAVE TO SEARCH THRU MANY POSTS OVER SEVERAL YEARS AND THEN TRY TO ORGANIZE IT EVERY TIME YOU NEED THE INFORMATION. THIS WOULD PRODUCE A GOOD REFRENCE BUT WOULD NOT BE ACCEPTED AS OFFICAL BY ACADEMIC CIRCLES. THE REASON WOULD BE FOR EXAMPLE, IF A ANCIENT WITCHDOCTOR WROTE A BOOK ON HIS TRIBE AND ITS BELIEFS IT WOULD NOT BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY. BUT IF A NOTED ANTHROPOLIGIST WITH A PHD GOT THE INFORMATION FROM THE SAME WITCHDOCTOR AND WROTE A PAPER ON IT THEN IT WOULD BE ACADEMICALY ACCEPTED. THATS THE SYSTEM SO PERHAPS IN FUTURE SOMEONE WITH THE PROPER CREDENTIALS MIGHT UTILIZE THE FORUMS RAMBELING POSTS FOR AN OFFICIAL PAPER. IF THE INFORMATION WERE PUT IN ORDER IT WOULD BE EASIER FOR THE PHD'S AS WELL AS THE REST OF US TO ACCESS. THE FACTOR THAT WILL BE THE MOST TROUBLE WOULD BE FINDING PEOPLE WILLING TO COMITT TO DOING THE WORK WHO HAVE THE TIME, ENERGY AND SKILLS TO SEE IT COMPLETED. LEE WOULD ALSO HAVE TO APPROVE AND SHOULD NOT BE EXPECTED TO PUT UP ANY MORE FUNDS OR TIME THAN HE HAS ALREADY HAS AS I AM SURE HE IS A VERY BUSY FELLOW. PERHAPS NOW WOULD BE A GOOD TIME TO EXPRESS MY APPRECIATION AGAIN FOR ALL LEE JONES AND ARTZI AS WELL AS ALL HELPING WITH THIS FORUM HAVE DONE FOR US ALL, THEY TRULY ARE OUR MENTORS.

13th June 2006, 01:14 AM	#10
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hey Vandoo, About that crack about witchdoctors.... Speaking as a PhD, I've got a grudging respect for Carlos Castaneda and his ilk. After all, us PhuDdies just get our &%^ degrees and miserable academic jobs. The publishing witch doctors sell self help books, make a few million bucks, retire to Malibu and collect swords. I'd rather be a witch doctor, meself Seriously though, I'd suggest that whatever financial issues that surround publishing this forum be treated very, very* carefully. I don't mind giving my opinion for free, but if someone else is profiting from it unfairly, they should pay me for my input, same as everyone else. Considering how many doctors and lawyers there are on that list, paying everyone for their professional advice on weapons would get prohibitively expensive. This board works because it's free, and we really shouldn't jeopardize it by putting a monetary value on the opinions and images here. F

13th June 2006, 03:04 AM	#11
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	MABAGANI I FEEL THE SAME WAY ABOUT MAKEING IT TOO EASY FOR THE ACADEMICS WITH A DEGREE HAVEING TO DIG IT OUT THEMSELVES BUT I HAVE ALWAYS CONSIDERED IT SHORTSIGHTED OF THOSE WHO DISMISS EVERYONE THAT DOES NOT POSESS THE PROPER ACADEMIC CREDENTIALS AS KNOW NOTHINGS. FORTUNATELY NOT ALL ACADEMICS ARE LIKE THAT AND I AM WILLING TO EXCUSE THE FEW THAT ARE AND MAKE THE INFORMATION AND IDEAS AVAILABLE TO ALL. I SURE HAVE MELLOWED WITH AGE FERN I DIDN'T MEAN TO IMPLY THAT A PHD WAS NOT WORTHY AS THEY DON'T GIVE THOSE THINGS AWAY FOR FREE (UNLESS THEY ARE HONORARY ) IT REQUIRES SEVERAL YEARS OF HARD WORK AND ENOUGH MONEY FOR A EXCELLENT SWORD COLLECTION TO GET ONE. I DO RESPECT THOSE WHO HAVE WENT THAT EXTRA MILE TO GET ONE. I WAS JUST POKEING FUN AT THE ATTITUDE OF SOME AND THE WAY THINGS ARE DONE. UNFORTUNATELY MOST TRIBAL PEOPLE NEVER PUBLISH ANYTHING IT IS MOST ALWAYS PASSED DOWN VERBALLY. BUT IF THEY DID THEIR CREDENTIALS WOULD BE QUESTIONED BUT IF ONE WITH THE PROPER CREDENTIALS QUESTIONED THEM AND DID THE PAPER IT WOULD BE ACCEPTED. FORTUNATELY SUCH PAPERS HAVE BEEN DONE OR A LOT OF VALUABLE INFORMATION WOULD HAVE BEEN LOST. WITCH DOCTORS USED TO HAVE IT MADE THEY HAD EVERYTHING THEY NEEDED TO LIVE AND DID NOT WANT ANYTHING FROM OUTSIDE OF THEIR SOCIETY BUT THAT IS RARE THESE DAYS. IN OUR SOCIETY TODAY YOU WOULD HAVE TO SET UP A PSYCHIC HOTLINE, PEDDLE A MIRACLE NATURAL VITAMIN AND APPEAR ON ALL THE TV TALK SHOWS TO MAKE IT ITS TOO LATE TO KEEP SOMEONE FROM PROFITING IN A MONETARY WAY FROM THE INFORMATION WE SUPPLY HERE AS MANY USE IT ON EBAY FOR THE ITEMS THEY SELL. BESIDES SOMEONE MIGHT WRITE A NICE BOOK WITH LOTS OF PICTURES FOR US SOME DAY BASED ON INFORMATION FOUND HERE AND ELSEWHERE. I CAN THINK OF QUITE A FEW AREAS THAT HAVE VERY LITTLE PUBLISHED ESPECIALLY IN ENGLISH BUT ONE CAN ALWAYS HOPE FOR NEW REFRENCES AS MANY OLD ONES ARE NOT AVAILABLE OR TOO EXPENSIVE.

13th June 2006, 07:06 AM	#12
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Vandoo, Don't worry about it--I was making fun of the way allegedly well-trained and intelligent people get treated, whether they're witch doctors or PhDs. You're also right about people profiting from information on this website. I just don't want to see a "best of vikingsword...only $29.95." replacing the search function on the forum. F