Stick, a question of balance

Tim Simmons · 6th December 2008, 08:43 PM

Picked this up today. There is some label left on it. Could be genuinely old or a fake up. I have seen an item that I had swapped to an aquientance reappear at a local market with an old museum label and fountain pen scribble on it months latter. So never pay more just for a label.

This is a long knob stick not a knobkerrie

109cm long. What is worth some thought is the early piece of galvanized steel piping at the other end. Before I go any further I must say that the addition of this metal has created a centre of gravity in the middle of the stick. Just enough weight to make a long reach fast without loosing too much energy to the ball. One handed I might add.

Are we looking at "uggamugga me find look good on stick" or a considered approach to the making of a fighting stick weapon?

The label dated 7/11/70 is that 1870 or 1970?

Close inspection of the metal shows that it is not a small piece cut from a larger section of pipe. This is because the edges are galvanizised so it appears to be some kind of spacer or connection piece. Is this then a found piece? or an item of trade? I have looked at the history of steel piping and galvanization so a date 1870 is not unreasonable. I find it hard to believe that a found item just happens to finish the weapon? Any comments?

Freddy · 6th December 2008, 08:49 PM

Could also be a walking stick of some kind with a knobkerrie head ?

What if the metal piece at the bottom is to prevent the wood from splitting or for strengthening the lower part of this stick. I believe it's called a 'ferrule'.

Nevertheless a very nice piece.

Tim Simmons · 6th December 2008, 08:57 PM

Hi Freddy.

The metal is galvanized steel pipe which had/has many uses. It does not seem to be there as a ferrule as the stick is bare at the end, nor does it appear to be any sort of clamp on the wood as I can move it and I think with some force take it off. It does however balance the stick in the centre.

fearn · 6th December 2008, 09:53 PM

Hi Tim,

I'll ask the dumb questions again. Why isn't it a knobkerrie? To me, the wood could be African.

What I'm specifically wondering is if it's from South Africa circa 1970. That would place it in the middle of apartheid Africa, quite possibly from a township. In that environment, I'd have no trouble seeing someone weight the end of his knobkerrie to get the balance right, because he might well be fighting with it, either as part of a gang or for self-defense--or both. A piece of scrap metal that fits the shaft would be perfect for something like this.

Would that interpretation work, or is there something I'm missing?

F

Tim Simmons · 6th December 2008, 10:06 PM

Fearn glad you piped up.

What I am interested in is.-

Is it scrap metal? or is it a trade item, I hate to say it but like beads? As to age this is the downfall of collecting ethno artifacts? All I can say is it matches all our 19th century furniture and other clubs in patina? who knows? Execpt I am sure it is older than 1970.

David · 6th December 2008, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Are we looking at "uggamugga me find look good on stick" or a considered approach to the making of a fighting stick weapon?

I really don't mean to derail this conversation, but am i the only one who finds this sentence somewhat offensive. If so, please excuse my overly sensitve PC attitudes.

fearn · 7th December 2008, 05:48 AM

Hi David,

I did read that sentence a couple of times, and I'm willing to give Tim the benefit of the doubt. My thought was that " Are we looking at 'uggamugga me find look good on stick' was aimed at an English bloke doing some "re-ddecorating"

to sell an antique, not an African. Otherwise, that I would agree that it could be offensive.

Primarily, I'd say that we've got so many people for whom English is a second (or perhaps, fourth) language that we need to be *very* careful with our sarcasm. It's bad enough that we Americans, Brits, Scots, and Aussies all seem to think we're speaking the same language, let alone try to communicate irony across oceans!

F

Tim Simmons · 7th December 2008, 03:10 PM

I did not mean to upset any rather too keen sensibilities, in my threads I am indeed most often trying to rid the apparently simple from too long a held notion of primitive and unsophisticated. I always champion the subtle skills of people from cultures that to many are only now accepting as being able to produce Art. "Uggamugga" expresses the ignorance of those who cannot and often will not see skill. I am sorry if I hurt you

.

David · 7th December 2008, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

I did not mean to upset any rather too keen sensibilities, in my threads I am indeed most often trying to rid the apparently simple from too long a held notion of primitive and unsophisticated. I always champion the subtle skills of people from cultures that to many are only now accepting as being able to produce Art. "Uggamugga" expresses the ignorance of those who cannot and often will not see skill. I am sorry if I hurt you

.

Thanks for your response and explanation Tim. Without it i would have continued to assume that your position was quite the opposite of what you have just expressed in this post. Glad to hear it is otherwise. And no worries mate, you didn't cause me any "hurt".

Tim Simmons · 7th December 2008, 07:27 PM

What I am trying to suggest is that the two parts came together not by random circumstance. But originates from the skill and knoweldge of a warrior or made by a specialist with guidance of the end user. That brings me to the possibility that the galvanized steel part is a requested item of trade. If so what seems a simple stick tell a long story?

http://eurofencecoatings.com/index.p...lvanising.html

6th December 2008, 08:43 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Stick, a question of balance Picked this up today. There is some label left on it. Could be genuinely old or a fake up. I have seen an item that I had swapped to an aquientance reappear at a local market with an old museum label and fountain pen scribble on it months latter. So never pay more just for a label. This is a long knob stick not a knobkerrie 109cm long. What is worth some thought is the early piece of galvanized steel piping at the other end. Before I go any further I must say that the addition of this metal has created a centre of gravity in the middle of the stick. Just enough weight to make a long reach fast without loosing too much energy to the ball. One handed I might add. Are we looking at "uggamugga me find look good on stick" or a considered approach to the making of a fighting stick weapon? The label dated 7/11/70 is that 1870 or 1970? Close inspection of the metal shows that it is not a small piece cut from a larger section of pipe. This is because the edges are galvanizised so it appears to be some kind of spacer or connection piece. Is this then a found piece? or an item of trade? I have looked at the history of steel piping and galvanization so a date 1870 is not unreasonable. I find it hard to believe that a found item just happens to finish the weapon? Any comments? Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 6th December 2008 at 09:17 PM. Reason: SPELLING

6th December 2008, 08:49 PM	#2
Freddy Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sint-Amandsberg (near Ghent, Belgium) Posts: 830	Could also be a walking stick of some kind with a knobkerrie head ? What if the metal piece at the bottom is to prevent the wood from splitting or for strengthening the lower part of this stick. I believe it's called a 'ferrule'. Nevertheless a very nice piece.

6th December 2008, 08:57 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Hi Freddy. The metal is galvanized steel pipe which had/has many uses. It does not seem to be there as a ferrule as the stick is bare at the end, nor does it appear to be any sort of clamp on the wood as I can move it and I think with some force take it off. It does however balance the stick in the centre.

6th December 2008, 09:53 PM	#4
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Tim, I'll ask the dumb questions again. Why isn't it a knobkerrie? To me, the wood could be African. What I'm specifically wondering is if it's from South Africa circa 1970. That would place it in the middle of apartheid Africa, quite possibly from a township. In that environment, I'd have no trouble seeing someone weight the end of his knobkerrie to get the balance right, because he might well be fighting with it, either as part of a gang or for self-defense--or both. A piece of scrap metal that fits the shaft would be perfect for something like this. Would that interpretation work, or is there something I'm missing? F

6th December 2008, 10:06 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Fearn glad you piped up. What I am interested in is.- Is it scrap metal? or is it a trade item, I hate to say it but like beads? As to age this is the downfall of collecting ethno artifacts? All I can say is it matches all our 19th century furniture and other clubs in patina? who knows? Execpt I am sure it is older than 1970.

7th December 2008, 05:48 AM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi David, I did read that sentence a couple of times, and I'm willing to give Tim the benefit of the doubt. My thought was that " Are we looking at 'uggamugga me find look good on stick' was aimed at an English bloke doing some "re-ddecorating" to sell an antique, not an African. Otherwise, that I would agree that it could be offensive. Primarily, I'd say that we've got so many people for whom English is a second (or perhaps, fourth) language that we need to be very careful with our sarcasm. It's bad enough that we Americans, Brits, Scots, and Aussies all seem to think we're speaking the same language, let alone try to communicate irony across oceans! F

7th December 2008, 03:10 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I did not mean to upset any rather too keen sensibilities, in my threads I am indeed most often trying to rid the apparently simple from too long a held notion of primitive and unsophisticated. I always champion the subtle skills of people from cultures that to many are only now accepting as being able to produce Art. "Uggamugga" expresses the ignorance of those who cannot and often will not see skill. I am sorry if I hurt you .

7th December 2008, 07:27 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	What I am trying to suggest is that the two parts came together not by random circumstance. But originates from the skill and knoweldge of a warrior or made by a specialist with guidance of the end user. That brings me to the possibility that the galvanized steel part is a requested item of trade. If so what seems a simple stick tell a long story? http://eurofencecoatings.com/index.p...lvanising.html