Paint primer on old weapons?

M ELEY · 26th April 2010, 01:30 AM

I've been trying to research this phenomenon for awhile, but with little effect. I am looking for any solid information showing that there were some arms that were primed/painted/tarred to preserve the iron and prevent corrosion. Here is what little I have found over the years...

Obviously, black primer has been being used on naval weapons at least from the 1790's period on. The early Brit and American double disc hilt/Figure 8 hilts had this feature on their hilts only, as did other naval swords of the mid-18th thru 19th century. I have a fairly well documented naval grappling hook in a red brown primer contemporary to its use (early/mid- 19th c.) Other items of naval usage were tarred to retard rusting.

Spike tomahawks and hammer pole axes often had painted/stained heads, whether this indicating that they were more for tool use or not, I am not clear.
The primary "paint" colors from the time of the Revolution onward consisted of barn red/brown, olive green and even a bright blue (the blue I have seen on gun powder kegs, canteens, etc from the 18th on, possibly earlier?) I have a Rev War rum/powder keg with lashed hoop bindings painted green/black.

I have seen some old 16th-17th c. seige weapons/tools, such as German kriegs sickles (spelling!)/forks with blackened/primed blades. Again, perhaps this was because they were primarily tools in times of peace and perhaps the covering extended their life???

I'm hoping others may know of weapon examples with primed blades. Of course I am particularly interested due to the Dutch sword I posted recently having a very old primed brown blade. Any info or examples, folks? Thanks in advance.

Matchlock · 26th April 2010, 05:06 AM

Hi Mark,

Thank you so much for starting that highly interesting topic!

The only real examples of painted/stained iron surfaces on early (15th-17th) firearms to prevent them from rusting I can give are minium/read lead painted barrels and locks. Blueing, on the other hand, was almost always achieved by the heat of the smith's fire and stopped at exactly the right color/temperature in those times.

What I have often seen in untouched arsenal situations are barrels painted black for the same conservatory reasons but only in the 18th century and later - which means well after their original time of use.

For today I give some samples from a minium painted barrel of ca. 1460-70 preserved in Schloss Ambras, Austria, and from Schloss Frondsberg, Styria/ Austria, ca. 1540 - the later partially sold by Tom Del Mar, 15 Dec 2004; the barrels of the latter were missing and later replaced by primitive dummies.

More to follow.

Best, my friend,
Michael

P.S. Please see also my previous thread on the world's oldest known existing hand firearm, now preserved in my collection!
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7077

M ELEY · 26th April 2010, 07:08 AM

Thank you so much, Michael, for coming in on this subject. The red/lead painted finish on the Schloss example has the exact type of primed surface as the Dutch sword I've listed in the recent thread. It is very interesting that you note that many of these "coatings", especially with black paint, were put on items later for conservation and mention the time frame starting circa 18th century. It does seem that in my research, that is also when the process began in earnest with naval weapons and such. It stands to reason then that perhaps the lion-hilt sword of which I speak might have had the paint down at it's creaion, circa 1650 or perhaps a century later for preservation reasons. I appreciate the input and must again congratulate you on your one-of-a-kind early hand gun! Your exquisite collection easily rivals or beats most museum collections I've seen!

Mark

M ELEY · 27th April 2010, 12:01 AM

Here's a naval piece with brownish red primer to retard salt corrosion. Sea air just loved iron implements...

fernando · 27th April 2010, 01:12 PM

Hi Mark,
During Portuguese discoveries, colonial swords,the so called crab style, were painted black, firstly to prevent rust and aledgely also to avoid denouncing their presence in action, due to steel shining ... or vice versa!
There are inventories of the period (XVI century), listing them as "board black swords". The term "board" showing evidence of their naval use.
Fernando

fernando · 27th April 2010, 02:38 PM

Also wooden stocks were covered with primers to avoid worm rot.
By the turning of the XVIII-XIX there was a gunsmith established in Braga (North Portugal), who has become popular by producing low cost muskets, that were massively required by imigrants going to reside in Brazil and Angola.
Hi name was Lazaro, and so was his father; due to this he decided to sign the guns with "Lazaro Lazarino legitimo de (legitimate from) Braga", in order not to be confused with the famous Italian Cominazos.
These muskets became so popular that all period hunting muskets were generically named "Lazarinas".
It is widely known that he used to finish these guns stocks with a red paint, to prevent rotting with worm and tropical moisture.

Fernando

.

M ELEY · 27th April 2010, 03:42 PM

Fantastic information, Fernando, thank you! I must do more research on the blackened "board black swords" you mention. That is a magnificent gun you picure. The red stock is quite nice. Is it one from your collection?

Norman McCormick · 27th April 2010, 04:31 PM

Hi,
An item of mine which has been tentatively identified as a possible example of an Indian 'cutlass'. Coincidently it has vestiges of black paint or a similar substance on the inside of the guard, on the grip and various spots elsewhere, definitely applied protection of some description or other, whether it was put on specifically for naval use or for protection in general is guesswork.
Regards,
Norman.

P.S. I was always under the impression that in the U.K., rightly or wrongly, that iron/steel items in a naval context, weapons or otherwise, were painted/coated for protection as a matter of course and that this was a long standing mode of preservation dating back to at least the end of the 18thC if not further back than this. In H.M. Forces the adage, 'if it moves salute it if it doesn't paint it' would seem to be appropriate in this context.

fernando · 27th April 2010, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... The red stock is quite nice. Is it one from your collection?...

Oh no; i have selected the more "close up" one from those illustrated in two of my books.
Not that they are extremely rare; you may find them for sale every now and then.
However examples spotted are often of very low quality. There were those made by Lazaro Lazarino, those imported from Belgium, and later even from Birmingham, to feed the increasing demand. Also Liege made their own exports to Africa.
And finally the African started making their own replicas, with barrels made of water pipes ... the usual stuff, with the stocks fully decorated with brass nails, etc.
As a matter of fact, these guns achieved the status of currency; they could be traded for women and, later, they were currency for the buying of slave boys ... as witnessed by Livingstone.
But i believe the red finishing in the stocks was a particular characteristic only used by Lazaro Lazarino.
Fernando

M ELEY · 27th April 2010, 08:12 PM

Trading guns for women...those were the days-

Yes, I have seen the Leige export types. I have a boarding pistol circa 1810 with Leige marks that I'm told was also exported to Africa as a cavalry pistol. Quite a difference. The reason I thought about it is that the wood is indeed a brownish red stain. Very interesting.

Norm, that is an incredible piece you have there. Cutlass all the way, I say. it makes sense that it would likewise copy the British patterns, in that the U.K. had such a foothold in India at that time. And of course, let us not forget about the Indian pirates (

). They were a powerful force in their day. This is really a great piece, Norman!

M ELEY · 11th March 2012, 05:33 AM

Bringing this one up again to ask an important question. If one assumes the old red primer was put on the weapon later, would you remove it? If so, how can one remove the old stain without damaging the patina? Opinions? Suggestions? I was thinking perhaps a chemical paint remover? I'm a big fan of pineapple juice for ethno pieces, but that tends to "shine up" the iron and I don't want that...

G. McCormack · 12th March 2012, 04:44 AM

If anyone is interested in the technical side of modern and historical conservations techniques as they pertain to ferrous products, I'd highly recommend:

Iron and Steel: Corrosion, Colorants, Conservation by David Scott

An answer to M Eley, if I wanted to remove old pigments such as primers, I would begin with acetone. However, your mileage may vary. Cheers

M ELEY · 13th March 2012, 02:10 AM

Thanks for your response. Does acetone protect the patina? I know I can test it first, but that is a primary concern. I'll look for that reference also.
Mark

G. McCormack · 13th March 2012, 07:10 AM

Acetone will affect certain types of patinas. Organic fats and waxes, gums, shellacs, may become dissolved. Iron chlorides may be washed away. It should not affect iron corrosion products such as goethite and akaganeite. One nice feature is it helps truly dry iron objects, where washing in distilled water can still cause flash rusting. So, it may be an option for you to consider.

26th April 2010, 01:30 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	Paint primer on old weapons? I've been trying to research this phenomenon for awhile, but with little effect. I am looking for any solid information showing that there were some arms that were primed/painted/tarred to preserve the iron and prevent corrosion. Here is what little I have found over the years... Obviously, black primer has been being used on naval weapons at least from the 1790's period on. The early Brit and American double disc hilt/Figure 8 hilts had this feature on their hilts only, as did other naval swords of the mid-18th thru 19th century. I have a fairly well documented naval grappling hook in a red brown primer contemporary to its use (early/mid- 19th c.) Other items of naval usage were tarred to retard rusting. Spike tomahawks and hammer pole axes often had painted/stained heads, whether this indicating that they were more for tool use or not, I am not clear. The primary "paint" colors from the time of the Revolution onward consisted of barn red/brown, olive green and even a bright blue (the blue I have seen on gun powder kegs, canteens, etc from the 18th on, possibly earlier?) I have a Rev War rum/powder keg with lashed hoop bindings painted green/black. I have seen some old 16th-17th c. seige weapons/tools, such as German kriegs sickles (spelling!)/forks with blackened/primed blades. Again, perhaps this was because they were primarily tools in times of peace and perhaps the covering extended their life??? I'm hoping others may know of weapon examples with primed blades. Of course I am particularly interested due to the Dutch sword I posted recently having a very old primed brown blade. Any info or examples, folks? Thanks in advance.

26th April 2010, 05:06 AM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Mark, Thank you so much for starting that highly interesting topic! The only real examples of painted/stained iron surfaces on early (15th-17th) firearms to prevent them from rusting I can give are minium/read lead painted barrels and locks. Blueing, on the other hand, was almost always achieved by the heat of the smith's fire and stopped at exactly the right color/temperature in those times. What I have often seen in untouched arsenal situations are barrels painted black for the same conservatory reasons but only in the 18th century and later - which means well after their original time of use. For today I give some samples from a minium painted barrel of ca. 1460-70 preserved in Schloss Ambras, Austria, and from Schloss Frondsberg, Styria/ Austria, ca. 1540 - the later partially sold by Tom Del Mar, 15 Dec 2004; the barrels of the latter were missing and later replaced by primitive dummies. More to follow. Best, my friend, Michael P.S. Please see also my previous thread on the world's oldest known existing hand firearm, now preserved in my collection! http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7077 Attached Images

27th April 2010, 12:01 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	Grappling hook Here's a naval piece with brownish red primer to retard salt corrosion. Sea air just loved iron implements... Attached Images

27th April 2010, 02:38 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Also wooden stocks were covered with primers to avoid worm rot. By the turning of the XVIII-XIX there was a gunsmith established in Braga (North Portugal), who has become popular by producing low cost muskets, that were massively required by imigrants going to reside in Brazil and Angola. Hi name was Lazaro, and so was his father; due to this he decided to sign the guns with "Lazaro Lazarino legitimo de (legitimate from) Braga", in order not to be confused with the famous Italian Cominazos. These muskets became so popular that all period hunting muskets were generically named "Lazarinas". It is widely known that he used to finish these guns stocks with a red paint, to prevent rotting with worm and tropical moisture. Fernando . Attached Images

27th April 2010, 04:31 PM	#8
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,596	Hi, An item of mine which has been tentatively identified as a possible example of an Indian 'cutlass'. Coincidently it has vestiges of black paint or a similar substance on the inside of the guard, on the grip and various spots elsewhere, definitely applied protection of some description or other, whether it was put on specifically for naval use or for protection in general is guesswork. Regards, Norman. P.S. I was always under the impression that in the U.K., rightly or wrongly, that iron/steel items in a naval context, weapons or otherwise, were painted/coated for protection as a matter of course and that this was a long standing mode of preservation dating back to at least the end of the 18thC if not further back than this. In H.M. Forces the adage, 'if it moves salute it if it doesn't paint it' would seem to be appropriate in this context. Attached Images Last edited by Norman McCormick; 27th April 2010 at 05:11 PM.

26th April 2010, 07:08 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	Thank you so much, Michael, for coming in on this subject. The red/lead painted finish on the Schloss example has the exact type of primed surface as the Dutch sword I've listed in the recent thread. It is very interesting that you note that many of these "coatings", especially with black paint, were put on items later for conservation and mention the time frame starting circa 18th century. It does seem that in my research, that is also when the process began in earnest with naval weapons and such. It stands to reason then that perhaps the lion-hilt sword of which I speak might have had the paint down at it's creaion, circa 1650 or perhaps a century later for preservation reasons. I appreciate the input and must again congratulate you on your one-of-a-kind early hand gun! Your exquisite collection easily rivals or beats most museum collections I've seen! Mark

27th April 2010, 01:12 PM	#5
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Mark, During Portuguese discoveries, colonial swords,the so called crab style, were painted black, firstly to prevent rust and aledgely also to avoid denouncing their presence in action, due to steel shining ... or vice versa! There are inventories of the period (XVI century), listing them as "board black swords". The term "board" showing evidence of their naval use. Fernando

27th April 2010, 03:42 PM	#7
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	Fantastic information, Fernando, thank you! I must do more research on the blackened "board black swords" you mention. That is a magnificent gun you picure. The red stock is quite nice. Is it one from your collection?

27th April 2010, 08:12 PM	#10
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	Trading guns for women...those were the days- Yes, I have seen the Leige export types. I have a boarding pistol circa 1810 with Leige marks that I'm told was also exported to Africa as a cavalry pistol. Quite a difference. The reason I thought about it is that the wood is indeed a brownish red stain. Very interesting. Norm, that is an incredible piece you have there. Cutlass all the way, I say. it makes sense that it would likewise copy the British patterns, in that the U.K. had such a foothold in India at that time. And of course, let us not forget about the Indian pirates ( ). They were a powerful force in their day. This is really a great piece, Norman!

11th March 2012, 05:33 AM	#11
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	Bringing this one up again to ask an important question. If one assumes the old red primer was put on the weapon later, would you remove it? If so, how can one remove the old stain without damaging the patina? Opinions? Suggestions? I was thinking perhaps a chemical paint remover? I'm a big fan of pineapple juice for ethno pieces, but that tends to "shine up" the iron and I don't want that...

12th March 2012, 04:44 AM	#12
G. McCormack Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 131	If anyone is interested in the technical side of modern and historical conservations techniques as they pertain to ferrous products, I'd highly recommend: Iron and Steel: Corrosion, Colorants, Conservation by David Scott An answer to M Eley, if I wanted to remove old pigments such as primers, I would begin with acetone. However, your mileage may vary. Cheers

13th March 2012, 02:10 AM	#13
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,093	Thanks for your response. Does acetone protect the patina? I know I can test it first, but that is a primary concern. I'll look for that reference also. Mark

13th March 2012, 07:10 AM	#14
G. McCormack Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 131	Acetone will affect certain types of patinas. Organic fats and waxes, gums, shellacs, may become dissolved. Iron chlorides may be washed away. It should not affect iron corrosion products such as goethite and akaganeite. One nice feature is it helps truly dry iron objects, where washing in distilled water can still cause flash rusting. So, it may be an option for you to consider.