Cretan Revolution Weapons 18th century

[Skarts_ss]

Hi all,

i would like to share with you, my family weapons that have passed to me.
It is a pistol and a yatagan. Both weapons belonged to my great great great grandfather who was a well known and recognized chief in the Cretan revolution of 1866.
I would say that the pistol is of European origin, probably of early or mid 18th century. The mechanism is French. It was decorated in Crete. Yatagan has similar decorations. Any comments welcome
Thanks

[Skarts_ss]

...

[spiral]

Interesting Piece!

Have you a photo of the lock side & also an angled from butt at lock as well? to show the prominence of the metal work in that area.

They would help us see it more clearly I think!

Spiral

[Skarts_ss]

....

[David]

I would also suggest some images that show the entire weapon. While detail shots are extremely helpful, a good overview shot is also a great help.
You should also post more images of the yatagan that actually show the blade. Yu will certainly get more feedback this way.

[Skarts_ss]

Yes thats correct i will post more photos
thank you

[Jim McDougall]

How regrettable that these intriguing and obviously well provenanced items from Crete brought no interest whatsoever!!!

I wanted to bump this thread in case anybody out there has interest in the weapons of Crete

First I would recommend most highly "The Arms of Greece and Her Balkan Neighbors" by Dr. Robert Elgood (2009), as these attractive arms are, like these beautiful Cretan pieces, fascinating.

On that note, also intriguing is the book "The Cretan Dagger" by Nikos Vasilatos, about these distinctive shape hilt daggers

There is so much proud history held in these arms, hopefully some comments on these might come in .

The two images are of one of the daggers and of the foukaria (=silver sheath) of another.

[kronckew]

more pics of the yataghan out of the scabbard please!

[David]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

How regrettable that these intriguing and obviously well provenanced items from Crete brought no interest whatsoever!!!

Perhaps that is because these items might be more properly placed in the European Forum…

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by David

Perhaps that is because these items might be more properly placed in the European Forum…

Really?????
Somehow (for the past 17+ years) the yataghans from the Balkans, Greece, Albania etc have been decidedly discussed here as ethnographic weapons. Have these regions now become part of Europe? I better check my latest National Geographic's!! The last I checked Crete was still in the proximity of Greece geographically .

[fernando]

Originally Posted by David

Perhaps that is because these items might be more properly placed in the European Forum…

There has been a more evident one ... Mister moderator, sir
... but not yet contemplated . Can you apply your influence

[David]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Really?????
Somehow (for the past 17+ years) the yataghans from the Balkans, Greece, Albania etc have been decidedly discussed here as ethnographic weapons. Have these regions now become part of Europe? I better check my latest National Geographic's!! The last I checked Crete was still in the proximity of Greece geographically .

That's all well and good Jim, but it doesn't seem, as you have so astutely pointed out, that anyone is discussing these particular weapons right here right now. So i was just a simple suggestion of how it might get more response and i am having some difficulty understanding your extreme and somewhat snarky reaction to it.
BTW, the last time I checked, both Greece AND Crete were indeed considered to be part of Europe.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by David

That's all well and good Jim, but it doesn't seem, as you have so astutely pointed out, that anyone is discussing these particular weapons right here right now. So i was just a simple suggestion of how it might get more response and i am having some difficulty understanding your extreme and somewhat snarky reaction to it.
BTW, the last time I checked, both Greece AND Crete were indeed considered to be part of Europe.

Oh...I guess I was having difficulty understanding your suggestion this was more 'properly' placed on the European forum, and of course I would never issue a 'snarky' remark to you!!!....I thought you were kidding

Interesting issue though, which weapons are 'ethnographic' and which are 'European'. While Greece and Crete are of course in the modern European Union, the extremely broadened classification of 'Europe' does bring a sort of paradox to defining these fields of study. Perhaps my own perception but I had not thought of the Balkans and Greece as part of Europe, but apparently that notion should be amended.

Hopefully these notes will help direct future queries and posts on yataghans more 'properly' to the European forum, but I think the ones from Turkey should remain on the ethnographic side.

[David]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

While Greece and Crete are of course in the modern European Union, the extremely broadened classification of 'Europe' does bring a sort of paradox to defining these fields of study. Perhaps my own perception but I had not thought of the Balkans and Greece as part of Europe, but apparently that notion should be amended.

I'm not going to press this issue as i don't really care where these weapons are discussed. Again, i was simply trying to offer an explanation for why this thread may not have received more attention. However, i must point out that the inclusion of Greece into Europe is not some modern convenience of the European Union. Greece has ALWAYS been part of Europe. In fact, the name itself is of Greek origin (Europa from Greek Mythogy.The story of her abduction by Zeus in the form of a white bull was a Cretan story.), first used in the 6th century BC by Greek geographers.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by David

I'm not going to press this issue as i don't really care where these weapons are discussed. Again, i was simply trying to offer an explanation for why this thread may not have received more attention. However, i must point out that the inclusion of Greece into Europe is not some modern convenience of the European Union. Greece has ALWAYS been part of Europe. In fact, the name itself is of Greek origin (Europa from Greek Mythogy.The story of her abduction by Zeus in the form of a white bull was a Cretan story.), first used in the 6th century BC by Greek geographers.

Salaams David, Regarding Greece. Surely it ought to be considered not in respect of where it is today but where it was in the building bricks of history and regional traditions...that is in Asia ...at least partly so...and in relation to its influence and that of its major neighbors...particularly Turkey... in culture, dress, architecture, ethnographic arms and armour , style, food , ....and pretty well everything.

Quote'';Greece (From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

- Independence declared from the Ottoman Empire 1 January 1822
- Recognized 3 February 1830
- Current constitution 11 June 1975
- Joined the EU 1 January 1981

Greece is strategically located at the crossroads of Europe, Western Asia, and Africa, and shares land borders with Albania to the northwest, the Republic of Macedonia and Bulgaria to the north and Turkey to the northeast. The country consists of nine geographic regions: Macedonia, Central Greece, the Peloponnese, Thessaly, Epirus, the Aegean Islands (including the Dodecanese and Cyclades), Thrace, Crete, and the Ionian Islands. The Aegean Sea lies to the east of the mainland, the Ionian Sea to the west, and the Mediterranean Sea to the south. Greece has the longest coastline on the Mediterranean Basin and the 11th longest coastline in the world at 13,676 km (8,498 mi) in length, featuring a vast number of islands (approximately 1,400, of which 227 are inhabited). Eighty percent of Greece consists of mountains, of which Mount Olympus is the highest, at 2,917 m (9,570 ft).

Modern Greece traces its roots to the civilization of Ancient Greece, beginning with the Bronze Age's Aegean Civilizations, and is considered the cradle of all Western civilization. As such, it is the birthplace of democracy, Western philosophy, the Olympic Games, Western literature and historiography, political science, major scientific and mathematical principles, and Western drama, including both tragedy and comedy. The cultural and technological achievements of Greece greatly influenced the world, with many aspects of Greek civilization being imparted to the East through Alexander the Great's campaigns, and to the West through the Roman Empire. This rich legacy is partly reflected in the 18 UNESCO World Heritage Sites located in Greece, ranking it 6th in Europe and 13th in the world.

The modern Greek state, which comprises much of the historical core of Greek civilization, was established in 1830 following the Greek War of Independence from the Ottoman Empire."Unquote.

Thus in Forum terms it would be folly to simply reclassify Greece as "European" Whilst it is technically in the west it is most definitely "Ethnographic" in essence....

I am reminded that one of the most ardent Grecian followers were the Abbasiid dynasty...!!

Common sense dictates a strategy of understanding its important role in Ethnographic terms.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Jim McDougall]

Good David! and I appreciate you explaining your explanation, as I took your note that perhaps if the topic posted was placed 'properly' on the other forum to mean that it must have been 'improperly' placed here on the ethnographic forum. That was to me, for some inexplicable reason, confusing as for the many decades I have studied arms I suddenly and awkwardly felt I had been incorrect in thinking of yataghans as ethnographic.

It was however so kind of you to express your concerns toward the probable reason this thread received no response, and of course the point is that arbitrary categorization as to which forum the topic of Cretan weapons, including yataghans is probably irrelevant. It seems that kris topics are posted as often on the ethnographic forum as on the kris forum, and the discussions seem to progress acceptably despite the location of posting.

The primary objective here is learning I believe, and I say truthfully that I honestly never thought of 'Europe' as including Greece, Crete or many of the countries and regions which apparently are technically included.
Here I would like to thank Ibrahiim for the outstanding material from Wikipedia, which I also looked into, and well explains these 'geographic' matters.

I think he hit the nail on the head when noting that in the west, it is the 'ethnographic essence' with which Greece, Crete and many of these countries are perceived that I must have been thinking of. In nearly 40 years in the travel industry, when people spoke of trips to 'Europe' I cannot think of a single instance where that included Greece! I now feel quite delighted that I am now so much better informed.

Hopefully this little detour in geographic convention, though interesting, will be left behind as once again I implore others with interest in the weapons of Crete to join here with comments and examples .

[David]

Well this is just billiant! Why don't we just derail the discussion of these weapons altogether and step out on a long and drawn out debate on whether or not Greece is in Europe or not. I'm sure that is exactly what Jim had in mind when he questioned why this thread hasn't attracted more attention.
Factually, Greece is now and always has been in what is considered Europe. The Greeks invented the word. Their own geographers in ancient times placed them on the western side of the divide between Europe and Asia and so has every geographer since. We cannot, therefore, "reclassify" something as European that has ALWAYS been considered European. That is common sense.
As far as Greece's influences as a "building block of history and regional traditions", i would have to say that the Greek culture had far more influence on the West than the East. As your own Wikipedia posting point out it is considered the cradle of Western civilization (not Eastern), "the birthplace of democracy, Western philosophy, the Olympic Games, Western literature and historiography, political science, major scientific and mathematical principles, and Western drama, including both tragedy and comedy." In other words, it is the birthplace of European culture.
As to what is to be considered "ethnographic", lets look at the definition of the word. From Miriam Webster:
Ethnography: the study and systematic recording of human cultures; also : a descriptive work produced from such research.
Descriptive study of a particular human society. Contemporary ethnography is based almost entirely on fieldwork. The ethnographer lives among the people who are the subject of study for a year or more, learning the local language and participating in everyday life while striving to maintain a degree of objective detachment. He or she usually cultivates close relationships with “informants” who can provide specific information on aspects of cultural life. While detailed written notes are the mainstay of fieldwork, ethnographers may also use tape recorders, cameras, or video recorders. Contemporary ethnographies have both influenced and been influenced by literary theory.
Note there is no mention of geographical place in this definition. Ethnographic study is therefore not limited to Asian cultures as ethnographic studies take place in cultures from ALL parts of the world, including Europe itself. In fact, many ethnographic studies have been done of certain aspects of European cultures. A weapon is not, therefore, "ethnographic" because of where it is from. Common sense would dictate that this is a strategy of understanding that is of prime importance to our understanding of the nature of ethnographic weapons.
I would suggest Ibrahiim, that if you really wish to discuss or debate this question further (and it is indeed a fine question that is of great concern to all our discussions here) that you start a new thread entitled "What is the meaning Ethnographic study". I think it is really good for us to re-examine how and why we make certain categorical divisions in our discussion of certain weaponry. For now i would suggest that we get back to the real questions at hand here about Drac2k's weapons. Continuing this discussion here will only distract from the original purpose of this thread and have the opposite result that i think Jim was really hoping for when he questioned why no one was responding here.

[David]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Good David! and I appreciate you explaining your explanation, as I took your note that perhaps if the topic posted was placed 'properly' on the other forum to mean that it must have been 'improperly' placed here on the ethnographic forum. That was to me, for some inexplicable reason, confusing as for the many decades I have studied arms I suddenly and awkwardly felt I had been incorrect in thinking of yataghans as ethnographic.

It was however so kind of you to express your concerns toward the probable reason this thread received no response, and of course the point is that arbitrary categorization as to which forum the topic of Cretan weapons, including yataghans is probably irrelevant. It seems that kris topics are posted as often on the ethnographic forum as on the kris forum, and the discussions seem to progress acceptably despite the location of posting.

My last words Jim, and then hopefully this thread can move forward.
Please read what i wrote again, this time with emphasis placed on certain words. "Perhaps that is because these items might be more properly placed in the European Forum…" If i knew for sure i probably would have written something more like "These weapons should be put in their proper place, the European Forum. The divisions here have always been a bit vague to me. So my use of "perhaps" and "might". It was merely a suggestion.
Regarding kris, Moro kris are never discussed in the Keris Forum. They are always Ethno. And Indonesian keris are never discussed in Ethno. Certainly the addition of the Keris Forum might seem strange to some, as they are indeed ethnographic weapons as well. However, the culture of keris was so complex and specific that Rick saw the need and when he asked me to help i agreed that they were best discussed in their own forum. We have, of course, seen some forum like SFI weakened by it's very extensive division of weapons into way too many separated forums. So far i think we have done pretty well with just our three. But all these divisions are artificial at best. Let's see if we can now take this discussion elsewhere (as i do think it is valuable) and get on with Drack2's weapons.

[Jim McDougall]

Leaving the trainwreck behind, I started looking into more on the events which these fascinating weapons may have had a part in, the Cretan Rebellion of 1866-69, as the Cretans fought for independence against Ottoman rule.

Apparently one of the most significant events was the Seige of Arkadi, at this monastery, and the blue flag (attached) was flown there. The bravery and heroism of these patriots was amazing and it is in a sense chilling to view these wonderful examples Skarts was kind enough to share here.

In the original post he has noted that many of the gun components had been brought in from France. It seems I had read of similar instances with Greek forces during their war of independence in 1821, and how many of their firearms were from Europe, primarily France if I recall.

It is stated here that the decoration was completed in Crete, and I would like to look more into the motifs as well as comparison to other Greek weapons of the period. It is noted that the Cretan dagger was distinctly different than others from the Balkans, Greece and other regions, so it would be interesting to examine these differences.
I hope I can get to my copy of Elgoods book!!

What is intriguing here as well is the participation of France, and perhaps other European countries in helping Greece and Crete, countries regarded as at the peripheral boundaries of Europe proper, to fight against the Ottoman suzerains over them.

The map shows Greeks in blue and Turks in red.
The blue flag was flown at the monastery at Arkadi and the letters are for Crete, Enosis, freedom or death'.



Just crossed posts David.....agree...lets move on.

[David]

Well done Jim..please continue…

[spiral]

I think wherever posted, The lack of good photos & interaction was the problem.

Personaly I think the European forum offshoot, weakens the site & even hints at racialism.. Actually that may be wrong. A more accurate word would maybe be Colonalism A sort of "We bloody Europeans are not Ethnographic! Thats fuzzy wuzzys, Indian & Asian stuff" Type of attitude.

While Ethnographic is actually the scientific description of peoples and cultures with their customs, habits, tools, weapons etc. and there mutual differences. one has to remember Europeans are ethnographic as well! Including the English & maybe even new world Americans too! {All though I guess that get more complex....}

A break down of English, German, Portuguese, French, Japanese or Sudanese , zulu or any other sub division forum within ethnography I could understand But A "European" section?

I think Jims post & this thread illustrate the problem here most succinctly.

Were all people of race with are similarities & differences to all other races after all.

spiral

[Jim McDougall]

Actually all I said was I was surprised there was not any response to the posts, even after Skarts agreed to post more pictures, and I thought at least the ones already there were good enough at least to start a discussion .

I simply reopened the thread because I thought the topic was interesting and certainly did not want to start an international incident!!! Good grief!!!
This was about the forum heading, and entirely a geographic issue concerning these countries..thats all!!!
There is no reason to go off on all these tangents on race etc.!!!

Lets get back to the discussion on Cretan arms HERE, and focus on that topic....I went through chaos to excavate my books here in the bookmobile, and I don't want all that for nothing!

Any further posts I expect will be on these weapons or historical data around them........no more editorials!

Thanks guys

[Andrew]

This thread is surreal.

The European Armoury sub-forum was created for discussion of "History and development of European arms and armor, ancient through medieval and up to the close of the 19th century." It is not "racialist", "nationalistic", or "colonialistic". It was created for housekeeping purposes so the Forum staff could better manage moderation duties. The Keris Warung Kopi was created for the same reason. Nothing more.


Back on topic or this thread will be closed.

[Jim McDougall]

To continue a look into these two weapons, and I do hope Skarts will return..as I mentioned I retrieved two references which I hope can help here somewhat. The first is the book "The Arms of Greece: And Her Balkan Neighbors" by Dr Robert Elgood (2009), and the other is "The Cretan Dagger" by Nikos Vasilatos (1993), which is in Greek but with extracts in English.

These references are detailed and complex for someone such as myself entirely unfamiliar with the arms of these regions, but I sincerely wanted to offer at least some kind of helpful observations. In my first hours of going through mostly Elgood, which is a phenomenal work and characteristic of his thorough detail, I can offer a few notes.

The pistol resembles two seen in Elgood (#105,106) in its straighter profile of the butt, somewhat in the manner of the Greek and Albanian 'roka' (rat tailed pistols) but obviously far from defined similarity. In the notes toward the lock, I would believe it is more probably Brescian, as these seem to have been more prevalent in these regions in Greece, so Cretan circumstances likely to follow. In around 1806 the Brescian makers did follow French designs in degree, so that might lend to the French attribution.

I found it curious that this pistol was flintlock, but Elgood notes the very conservative nature of Balkan society toward arms and costume. Here I would note that most of the observations pertaining to Greek or Balkan arms in general might be construed as non applicable to Crete, however it seems the influences would have been well diffused despite some differences.
While percussion locks were known by around 1847, it seems that in many regions in the 19th century, flintlocks were still favored as they did not require the more stringent ammunition supplies that percussion did.


On the yataghan, it seems that I saw a note suggesting blades were narrower, but need to relocate. On the motif, the most notable to me is the distinct zoomorphic chape decoration which apparently represents a snake.
These seem prevalent on scabbards throughout Balkan regions and the symbolism appears to be apotropaic, to ward off the evil eye, and also represents justice . There is a saying or motto, 'na se phaei to phidi' (= may the snake get you) which might align with that concept.
In Montenegrin legends one subject was a great warrior called 'ljuta zmija'
(=fierce serpent) which also might be alluded to with these scabbard tip motifs.
* another interesting note on these lines is that Montenegrins, Albanians and Greeks typically referred collectively to firearms as 'snakes', but obviously this is not related directly to the scabbard motif on edged weapons.

These were turbulent times in these regions, and I think it is important for our review and discussion of these arms to remain objective, and to realize that in war and conflicts unpleasant circumstances prevailed. Our study is focused on the arms as historic objects only, and must be considered respectfully .

I do hope these few observations will at least give some perspective on this pistol and yataghan, and that other others will follow.

[fernando]

Hi guys,
I sincerely don't understand why any thread containing doubts about where it should be better posted can not be moved or, in the context, copied to another sub-forum.
It was the thread author himself who said the pistol had an European origin and an European lock.
There are certainly members who more frequently (or only) visit one of the forum sections and the thread author (and us all) may only benefit with a wider range of contributions.
I take it that we are all here to collaborate ones with each other; all of us. If the thread was cloned to the European section soon as it was suggested, some approaches would have not taken place as well as any consequent position of strength ... which is always something bitter to swallow.

.

[Jim McDougall]

Very well said Nando. It seems there have always been tenuous concerns over whether an item is 'ethnographic' or if it may be considered European , particularly in regions either European colonized or with profound trade with Europe. Much of this has of course been due to the use of European made components in indigenous weapons, or sometimes hybridized forms reflecting European influence.

This was the very reason the European Armoury was begun some years ago. It seemed to me that it would be helpful to have a centralized forum which could focus on the study of the weapon forms which influenced and often provided components in many ethnographic forms. Obviously, in many cases it was difficult to determine which category certain anomalies might be better placed in , and the concept of cross referencing has worked effectively in many instances.

I believe most of the unfortunate misunderstanding in this thread developed from a suggestion that this protocol might have served to facilitate it better which was mistaken in meaning. The point that you make noting that if these weapons were placed in both forums, we would have had the benefit of both considerable fields of knowledge........a most salient point!

The idea that yataghans should be placed in the European section was of course seemingly preposterous, and the rather uncommonly held idea of Greece and Balkans being part of Europe despite being tenuously true revealed interesting perspective to this dilemma. As well noted by Ibrahiim, the concept of Europe geographically is in many cases to do with perception and these regions of the Balkans, Greece and even Russia are considered peripheral parts of Europe.

I would offer cases where yataghans could very well fall into the more stringent European category, and those would primarily have to do with auxiliary units in the armies of European countries using ethnic groups from the Balkans, based often on the Pandour units of the 18th century. There are a good number of examples of these types of yataghans made for European officers, and I have seen them even with European cyphers and motif on the blades.

[Oliver Pinchot]

Many thanks are due to Skarts for bringing this yatagan and pistol to our attention. The fact that they are well-provenanced is very helpful in studying the forms and decoration found on Greek and Ottoman weapons.

The level of workmanship is substantially above average. The stand of arms depicted on the breech plate is more or less typical of Ottoman motifs, however the human and animal figures on the counterplate are uncommon. The depiction of Christ Crowned on the triggerguard is exceptional.

Again, thanks to Skarts for providing these intriguing examples.

Oliver Pinchot

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Many thanks are due to Skarts for bringing this yatagan and pistol to our attention. The fact that they are well-provenanced is very helpful in studying the forms and decoration found on Greek and Ottoman weapons.

The level of workmanship is substantially above average. The stand of arms depicted on the breech plate is more or less typical of Ottoman motifs, however the human and animal figures on the counterplate are uncommon. The depiction of Christ Crowned on the triggerguard is exceptional.

Again, thanks to Skarts for providing these intriguing examples.

Oliver Pinchot

Thank you Oliver for joining in here!! Its great to see you!
As always your input and observations are paramount.

All the best,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

Looking further in the Vasilatos book I found more on the scabbard tip motif:

"...the lower part of the silver scabbards almost always end at a dragon or dolphin head, thus creating an integrated decorative impression at the final end of these precious objects".

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi guys,
I sincerely don't understand why any thread containing doubts about where it should be better posted can not be moved or, in the context, copied to another sub-forum.
It was the thread author himself who said the pistol had an European origin and an European lock.
There are certainly members who more frequently (or only) visit one of the forum sections and the thread author (and us all) may only benefit with a wider range of contributions.
I take it that we are all here to collaborate ones with each other; all of us. If the thread was cloned to the European section soon as it was suggested, some approaches would have not taken place as well as any consequent position of strength ... which is always something bitter to swallow.

.

Nando, I had intended copy the thread link to the Euro forum yesterday, but completely forgot. :0

Will remedy that now.

A