Moro Kris Swords

Edmos1212 · 4th March 2014, 04:56 AM

Hello. Newbie here. Just sharing some of my acquired swords. Appreciate if you can tell some of these as i am not really familiar actually except that they are part of the kris family. In particular, the one in the middle which is the longest one at about 4 feet in length and the one on its right that has an exquisite handle.

Thanks.

David · 4th March 2014, 07:26 AM

Hi Edmos. Welcome to the forum. These are all Moro kris and related blades The Keris Forum is reserved for only Indonesian keris blades so i have transferred this thread to the Ethno Forum where it will receive the proper attention.

David · 4th March 2014, 07:28 AM

I am sure you will get more feedback, but i can tell you that these are all from the latter part of the 20th century.

Edmos1212 · 4th March 2014, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

I am sure you will get more feedback, but i can tell you that these are all from the latter part of the 20th century.

Thanks Sir David!

David · 4th March 2014, 03:17 PM

Do you own Robert Cato's book Moro Sword? It is out of print, but copies turn up on eBay from time to time as well as online used bookstores (i use bookbinder.com). This book might be helpful in your future collecting choices.

VANDOO · 4th March 2014, 05:50 PM

WELCOME TO THE FORUM.

AS DAVID MENTIONED THESE ITEMS ARE OF MORE RECENT MANUFACTURE.
THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH COLLECTING MORE RECENT WORK IF THE PRICE IS RIGHT AND THE WORKMANSHIP GOOD. IT ALSO KEEPS THE SWORD AND KNIFE MAKERS IN BUSINESS WHICH IS GOOD. YOU HAVE QUITE A SELECTION OF FORMS SHOWING MANY VARIATIONS. OVER TIME THE SOCIETY NATURALLY CHANGES AND SO DOES THE DESIGN AND WORKMANSHIP OF THE ARTEFACTS THEY PRODUCE.
I SEE SOME INDONESIAN INFLUENCE ON SOME OF YOUR ITEMS AND FEATURES FOUND MORE ON THE KERIS THAN ON MORO KRIS FORMS. THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM AS OUTSIDE INFLUENCE OFTEN COMES TO CRAFTSMEN.
A NICE COLLECTION.

DaveS · 4th March 2014, 10:51 PM

Edmos1212: I agree, they are all mostly post W.W.2, except the two that are in the second set of pictures on the far left with the short blade between them look like older blades that have been fitted with newer handles. They just seem to be of an older style, at least to my eye anyway.........Dave.

Edmos1212 · 5th March 2014, 02:19 AM

Thanks guys for your honest assessments. Admittedly, i bought them based on their aesthetic appearance than on its "antique" value (assuming there was one). Bottomline for me is that this was made by the moro people from the southern philippines (except for the keris) and is authentic rather than replicas created by other regions and/or countries like china. I would know because i did personally scour the muslim community to get these. Expectedly, i bought this at a not-so-expensive price which led me to believe from the start that this is not antique. Most of those i interacted with are maranaos. I have a tausug friend though who discovered my latest passion for swords and has promised to give to me the swords of his grandpa in sulu soon. If that happens, i'll surely post this for your comments and validation. I like this forum and this group. Made me a day wiser evvery visit. Salamat po!

VANDOO · 5th March 2014, 04:18 AM

I OFTEN ADD ITEMS TO MY COLLECTION BASED ON ITS AESTHETIC APPEAL OR BECAUSE IT IS UNUSUAL OR UNIQUE REGARDLESS OF ITS AGE.
THERE IS AN ADVANTAGE TO COLLECTING MORE RECENT ITEMS ESPECIALLY IF YOU LIVE IN THE REGION WHERE THEY ARE MADE. YOU HAVE GOOD PROVENANCE AS TO AGE AND WHERE MADE AND MAY EVEN BE ABLE TO MEET THOSE WHO MAKE THEM. THE OPPORTUNITY TO MEET AND DISCUSS THIER WORK WITH THEM AND PERHAPS PLACE A SPECIAL ORDER WOULD BE VERY EDUCATIONAL AND ADD TO THE ITEMS WORTH TO YOU PERSONALLY. YOU ARE LUCKY TO BE IN THE AREA WHERE THE THINGS YOU COLLECT ARE MADE AND WILL BE ABLE TO GET GOOD PROVANANCE BUT ALSO A GOOD PRICE.
ITS UNFORTUNATE THAT ON ALMOST ALL OLDER ITEMS THAT INFORMATION IS LOST. IT WOULD BE VERY COOL TO HAVE THE TRIBE, LOCATION MADE AND NAME OF THE FAMILY OR MAKER ON OLDER WEAPONS.

Battara · 5th March 2014, 04:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edmos1212

Thanks guys for your honest assessments. Admittedly, i bought them based on their aesthetic appearance than on its "antique" value (assuming there was one). Bottomline for me is that this was made by the moro people from the southern philippines (except for the keris) and is authentic rather than replicas created by other regions and/or countries like china. I would know because i did personally scour the muslim community to get these. Expectedly, i bought this at a not-so-expensive price which led me to believe from the start that this is not antique. Most of those i interacted with are maranaos. I have a tausug friend though who discovered my latest passion for swords and has promised to give to me the swords of his grandpa in sulu soon. If that happens, i'll surely post this for your comments and validation. I like this forum and this group. Made me a day wiser evvery visit. Salamat po!

And thus instead of being fakes, they are simply recent.

David · 5th March 2014, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edmos1212

Bottomline for me is that this was made by the moro people from the southern philippines (except for the keris) and is authentic rather than replicas created by other regions and/or countries like china.

Edmos, which blade in your mix are you referring to as the "keris" here that is not made by the Moro people?

Edmos1212 · 5th March 2014, 08:45 AM

The biggest one in the middle, i think. That i did not buy from a moro but in an antique shop in manila. Maybe anyone is familiar with this type of kris/keris.

David · 5th March 2014, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edmos1212

The biggest one in the middle, i think. That i did not buy from a moro but in an antique shop in manila. Maybe anyone is familiar with this type of kris/keris.

Edmos, i could be wrong on this as there are other cultures existing in the Philippines, but i think that was also comes from Moroland.
However, though some may differ, i would not refer to this as a kris. Wavy blades are not a determinant for a kris IMO. Many blades have wavy blades that are not kris or keris and many blades that are kris or keris have straight blades. IMO a kris/keris requires an asymmetric base and particular features such as a gangya/gonjo to be considered as such. I think this form was probably inspired by kris blades, but i would hesitate to call it one.
BTW, though it is a fairly arbitrary distinction, on these forums in regard to keris/kris we have mostly agreed to refer to the Moro version with the spelling "KRIS" and the Indonesian type with the spelling "KERIS" to avoid confusion about which form of these blades we are discussing at any given time. I am not sure that this distinction exists anywhere else in the world, but it's probably good for you to know this to help you communicate more precisely with other members on the subject.

Edmos1212 · 6th March 2014, 07:06 AM

Noted on the keris and kris disctinction david. Just got confused on your assessment of the large sword. Correct me if my understanding is wrong. You are saying that this sword is a moro sword but not a kris? If yes, do you have an idea what this is?

VANDOO · 6th March 2014, 05:22 PM

ITEM #5. THE LARGE SWORD IS FAVORED FOR WEAR AT FESTIVALS AND IN PROCESSIONS IT IS OFTEN REFERRED TO AS A KRIS BUT DOES NOT REALLY QUALIFY AS ONE. IT LACKS ALL THE FILE WORK AND PARTS AT THE FORTE OF THE BLADE. NOTE THAT THE ENDS OF THE SCABBARDS ON THE FIRST TWO SWORDS AND THE LARGE ONE HAVE THE SAME SHAPE THIS IS NOT THE USUAL SHAPE FOR KRIS SCABBARDS BUT IS FOUND ON WHAT IS REFERRED TO AS A SULTANS KRIS. THERE IS A PICTURE OF THIS KRIS ON THE COVER OF ROBERT CATO'S BOOK ON KRIS. THE KERIS IS PICTURED ON PAGE 85 AND SAID TO BE EARLY 20 TH. CENTURY. THE BLADES ON YOUR FIRST TWO ARE PROPER KRIS BLADES OF THE OLDER STYLE, THE LONG ONE THOUGH WAVEY IS NOT A PROPER KRIS BLADE , AT LEAST NOT TO US OLDER COLLECTORS

BUT IT IS ETHINOGRAPHIC AND STILL IN USE IN THE SOCIETY THOUGH TOURISTS DO BUY THEM AS WELL.
ITEM #4 APPEARS TO BE CLOSER TO A KERIS ,INDONESIAN THAN TRADITIONAL MORO. THE HANDLE VERY KERIS LIKE AND THE FERRULE MORE LIKE THAT FOUND ON THE MORE RECENT GUNONG DAGGERS. IT MAKES ONE WONDER IF THIS SORT OF FERRULE WAS NOT DEVELOPED FOR THE GUNONG BASED ON THE MEDAK AND SELUT FOUND ON INDONESIAN KERIS. THE SCABBARD IS VERY CLOSE TO THE INDONESIAN KERIS RATHER THAN TRADITIONAL MORO FORM. THE BLADE IS MORO FORM.
ITEM #6 THE TIP OF THE SCABBARD IS OPEN WORK CARVED IN A FASHON I HAVE SEEN IN LOMBOK AND BALI.
THE OLDER BLADES WERE FORGED WITH WAVES OFTEN THE NEWER ONES ARE MADE FROM MONO STEEL AND THE BLADE SHAPED WITH GRINDERS HENCE THE THINNER BLADES AND SHARP POINTED LUKS.

THE LOCAL PRODUCTION SEEMS TO BE INFLUENCED FROM OUTSIDE CULTURES WHICH IS TO BE EXPECTED AS VERY FEW PEOPLES ARE ISOLATED IN TODAYS WORLD AND OLD TRADITIONS ARE NOT AS STRONG SO INOVATIONS ARE NO LONGER HELD BACK. A WORLD OF RAPID CHANGE EVEN IN MINDANAO.

David · 6th March 2014, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

ITEM #4 APPEARS TO BE CLOSER TO A KERIS ,INDONESIAN THAN TRADITIONAL MORO. THE HANDLE VERY KERIS LIKE AND THE FERRULE MORE LIKE THAT FOUND ON THE MORE RECENT GUNONG DAGGERS. IT MAKES ONE WONDER IF THIS SORT OF FERRULE WAS NOT DEVELOPED FOR THE GUNONG BASED ON THE MEDAK AND SELUT FOUND ON INDONESIAN KERIS. THE SCABBARD IS VERY CLOSE TO THE INDONESIAN KERIS RATHER THAN TRADITIONAL MORO FORM. THE BLADE IS MORO FORM.
ITEM #6 THE TIP OF THE SCABBARD IS OPEN WORK CARVED IN A FASHON I HAVE SEEN IN LOMBOK AND BALI.

Barry, i assume that you are using the first image for your counting and going top to bottom.
If that is the case, the style of #4 is one i have seen many times from the Philippines and i don't see that much Indonesian in it. This hilt form has some precedent in Moro blades AFAIK. Of course it is fair to say that everything about the Moro kris is influenced by the Indonesian keris is some way, but i wouldn't necessarily identify this style as being closer to the Indo keris.
Because i am afraid Edmos might get the wrong idea from what you are saying about influences i will reiterate that none of these blades originated in Indonesia.
I would have to see closer, more detailed shots of the two kris to the left of the second photo before committing to them being older blades. They very possibly are, but the photos just aren't clear enough.

4th March 2014, 04:56 AM	#1
Edmos1212 Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 23	Moro Kris Swords Hello. Newbie here. Just sharing some of my acquired swords. Appreciate if you can tell some of these as i am not really familiar actually except that they are part of the kris family. In particular, the one in the middle which is the longest one at about 4 feet in length and the one on its right that has an exquisite handle. Thanks. Attached Images

5th March 2014, 04:18 AM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I OFTEN ADD ITEMS TO MY COLLECTION BASED ON ITS AESTHETIC APPEAL OR BECAUSE IT IS UNUSUAL OR UNIQUE REGARDLESS OF ITS AGE. THERE IS AN ADVANTAGE TO COLLECTING MORE RECENT ITEMS ESPECIALLY IF YOU LIVE IN THE REGION WHERE THEY ARE MADE. YOU HAVE GOOD PROVENANCE AS TO AGE AND WHERE MADE AND MAY EVEN BE ABLE TO MEET THOSE WHO MAKE THEM. THE OPPORTUNITY TO MEET AND DISCUSS THIER WORK WITH THEM AND PERHAPS PLACE A SPECIAL ORDER WOULD BE VERY EDUCATIONAL AND ADD TO THE ITEMS WORTH TO YOU PERSONALLY. YOU ARE LUCKY TO BE IN THE AREA WHERE THE THINGS YOU COLLECT ARE MADE AND WILL BE ABLE TO GET GOOD PROVANANCE BUT ALSO A GOOD PRICE. ITS UNFORTUNATE THAT ON ALMOST ALL OLDER ITEMS THAT INFORMATION IS LOST. IT WOULD BE VERY COOL TO HAVE THE TRIBE, LOCATION MADE AND NAME OF THE FAMILY OR MAKER ON OLDER WEAPONS. Last edited by VANDOO; 5th March 2014 at 04:38 AM.

4th March 2014, 07:26 AM	#2
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Hi Edmos. Welcome to the forum. These are all Moro kris and related blades The Keris Forum is reserved for only Indonesian keris blades so i have transferred this thread to the Ethno Forum where it will receive the proper attention.

4th March 2014, 07:28 AM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	I am sure you will get more feedback, but i can tell you that these are all from the latter part of the 20th century.

4th March 2014, 03:17 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Do you own Robert Cato's book Moro Sword? It is out of print, but copies turn up on eBay from time to time as well as online used bookstores (i use bookbinder.com). This book might be helpful in your future collecting choices.

4th March 2014, 05:50 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	WELCOME TO THE FORUM. AS DAVID MENTIONED THESE ITEMS ARE OF MORE RECENT MANUFACTURE. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH COLLECTING MORE RECENT WORK IF THE PRICE IS RIGHT AND THE WORKMANSHIP GOOD. IT ALSO KEEPS THE SWORD AND KNIFE MAKERS IN BUSINESS WHICH IS GOOD. YOU HAVE QUITE A SELECTION OF FORMS SHOWING MANY VARIATIONS. OVER TIME THE SOCIETY NATURALLY CHANGES AND SO DOES THE DESIGN AND WORKMANSHIP OF THE ARTEFACTS THEY PRODUCE. I SEE SOME INDONESIAN INFLUENCE ON SOME OF YOUR ITEMS AND FEATURES FOUND MORE ON THE KERIS THAN ON MORO KRIS FORMS. THIS IS NOT A PROBLEM AS OUTSIDE INFLUENCE OFTEN COMES TO CRAFTSMEN. A NICE COLLECTION. Last edited by VANDOO; 4th March 2014 at 09:17 PM.

4th March 2014, 10:51 PM	#7
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Edmos1212: I agree, they are all mostly post W.W.2, except the two that are in the second set of pictures on the far left with the short blade between them look like older blades that have been fitted with newer handles. They just seem to be of an older style, at least to my eye anyway.........Dave.

5th March 2014, 02:19 AM	#8
Edmos1212 Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 23	Thanks guys for your honest assessments. Admittedly, i bought them based on their aesthetic appearance than on its "antique" value (assuming there was one). Bottomline for me is that this was made by the moro people from the southern philippines (except for the keris) and is authentic rather than replicas created by other regions and/or countries like china. I would know because i did personally scour the muslim community to get these. Expectedly, i bought this at a not-so-expensive price which led me to believe from the start that this is not antique. Most of those i interacted with are maranaos. I have a tausug friend though who discovered my latest passion for swords and has promised to give to me the swords of his grandpa in sulu soon. If that happens, i'll surely post this for your comments and validation. I like this forum and this group. Made me a day wiser evvery visit. Salamat po!

5th March 2014, 08:45 AM	#12
Edmos1212 Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 23	The biggest one in the middle, i think. That i did not buy from a moro but in an antique shop in manila. Maybe anyone is familiar with this type of kris/keris.

6th March 2014, 07:06 AM	#14
Edmos1212 Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 23	Noted on the keris and kris disctinction david. Just got confused on your assessment of the large sword. Correct me if my understanding is wrong. You are saying that this sword is a moro sword but not a kris? If yes, do you have an idea what this is?

6th March 2014, 05:22 PM	#15
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	ITEM #5. THE LARGE SWORD IS FAVORED FOR WEAR AT FESTIVALS AND IN PROCESSIONS IT IS OFTEN REFERRED TO AS A KRIS BUT DOES NOT REALLY QUALIFY AS ONE. IT LACKS ALL THE FILE WORK AND PARTS AT THE FORTE OF THE BLADE. NOTE THAT THE ENDS OF THE SCABBARDS ON THE FIRST TWO SWORDS AND THE LARGE ONE HAVE THE SAME SHAPE THIS IS NOT THE USUAL SHAPE FOR KRIS SCABBARDS BUT IS FOUND ON WHAT IS REFERRED TO AS A SULTANS KRIS. THERE IS A PICTURE OF THIS KRIS ON THE COVER OF ROBERT CATO'S BOOK ON KRIS. THE KERIS IS PICTURED ON PAGE 85 AND SAID TO BE EARLY 20 TH. CENTURY. THE BLADES ON YOUR FIRST TWO ARE PROPER KRIS BLADES OF THE OLDER STYLE, THE LONG ONE THOUGH WAVEY IS NOT A PROPER KRIS BLADE , AT LEAST NOT TO US OLDER COLLECTORS BUT IT IS ETHINOGRAPHIC AND STILL IN USE IN THE SOCIETY THOUGH TOURISTS DO BUY THEM AS WELL. ITEM #4 APPEARS TO BE CLOSER TO A KERIS ,INDONESIAN THAN TRADITIONAL MORO. THE HANDLE VERY KERIS LIKE AND THE FERRULE MORE LIKE THAT FOUND ON THE MORE RECENT GUNONG DAGGERS. IT MAKES ONE WONDER IF THIS SORT OF FERRULE WAS NOT DEVELOPED FOR THE GUNONG BASED ON THE MEDAK AND SELUT FOUND ON INDONESIAN KERIS. THE SCABBARD IS VERY CLOSE TO THE INDONESIAN KERIS RATHER THAN TRADITIONAL MORO FORM. THE BLADE IS MORO FORM. ITEM #6 THE TIP OF THE SCABBARD IS OPEN WORK CARVED IN A FASHON I HAVE SEEN IN LOMBOK AND BALI. THE OLDER BLADES WERE FORGED WITH WAVES OFTEN THE NEWER ONES ARE MADE FROM MONO STEEL AND THE BLADE SHAPED WITH GRINDERS HENCE THE THINNER BLADES AND SHARP POINTED LUKS. THE LOCAL PRODUCTION SEEMS TO BE INFLUENCED FROM OUTSIDE CULTURES WHICH IS TO BE EXPECTED AS VERY FEW PEOPLES ARE ISOLATED IN TODAYS WORLD AND OLD TRADITIONS ARE NOT AS STRONG SO INOVATIONS ARE NO LONGER HELD BACK. A WORLD OF RAPID CHANGE EVEN IN MINDANAO.