Historic Firearms and Mankind – Academic and Cultural Politics in Germany

Matchlock · 17th June 2014, 10:37 AM

Since the German Reunification in 1990, state and museum funds for all cultural belongings in common, and especially for the purchase of antique 'military'/arsenal firearms - no matter how old and important they may be - , have been crudely cut back. Military firearms are officially condemned as possibly raising aggressive feelings with museum visitors viewing them.

The situation has aggravated, especially after those rampages acted by youngsters started. At Columbine high-school in Colorado, two senior students murdered 12 of their fellow students and one teacher in 1999. Moreover, they injured 24 students, with three other people being injured while attempting to escape. Eventually, the killers committed suicide.
The German cultural authorities feel that those antique historical firearms may incite young people to go mad and act in killing frenzy (German: Amoklauf). In 2009, at Winnenden high-school, Southern Germany, and in a murder-suicide act, a 17-year old student shot 16 people imcluding himself.

Actually, it was Swiss! cultural politicians who started that anti-historical firearms campaign in the 1990's. Consequently, large and important Swiss firearms collections have been banned from public exhibition and packed into the storage rooms. This happened to the large famous weapons collection at the Historisches Museum Berne, to the ample collections of the Swiss Landesmuseum Zurich and the Altes Zeughaus Solothurn, as well as to a other Swiss state museums.

And it was the same sad story with German museums as well. By the early 1990's, almost all firearms have been withdrawn from the exhibition rooms of such important museums as the Bayerisches Nationalmuseum Munich, the Deutsches Historisches Museum/Altes Zeughaus Berlin or the wonderful arsenal collection at the Stadtmuseum/Zeughaus Munich - to name just a few of them. Most antique firearms, 300 to 600 years old, have even been withdrawn from the huge exhibition halls of the Bayrisches Armeemuseum Ingolstadt, only 30 km next to my home.
They will never be on viewing again for at least the next 30 years!

On the other hand, crossbows, edged weapons like swords and, of course, all kinds of armor, are still officially regarded as noble and gallant (German: edel), knightly or even kingly, and are not primarily defined as means of war, by both the official political and cultural Swiss and German authorities and the museums. Consequently, they are allowed to stay on exhibition, while antique firearms, even - or maybe especially - when they are the earliest ever made, like all guns in my collection, which holds not one single item that was manufactured after ca. 1720! Even the most antique firearms are officially condemned - politically, morally and culturally, and are regarded as endangering peaceful life and politics.

The story is as sad as it is true. Most museum curators will look down in a highly suspicious way on any scholar asking to be granted access and do research on firearms and their accouterments. Many of those people, especially the so-called generation 1968, and of course female curators, even react personally and blatantly disgusted. Various times, I have been asked how I can manage to combine my academic interest in these items with my conscience, and have been affronted as being a firearms freak who is gaga about guns. Of course I have fired original 400 year-old muskets; is just part of my comprehensive research, and believe me: firing a matchlock musket that is 1.67 m long overall and weighs 1o kgs is an incomparable experience which leaves a lasting impression.

Everybody who really knows me and both my personal and political serious creed realizes that I actually love and defend peace, as well as the rights of all political persecutees and refugees, that I respect all living beings, and especially humans, no matter what color their skin may be or what nation belong to. I have always fought for the good fight, and animal rights. I love and defend all animals, and especially cats, from the bottom of my heart!
Not only am I a Christian and believe in God, I also graduated, among others, in Theology from Regensburg University in 1982.

But I also love historical arsenal arms, just for their cultural, historical, technical, art historical and social importance; and they clearly document the fact that there are both sides to every medal, as well as every human being is, and will always be, giftet with both good and evil - the reverse of the medal.

Best,
Michael Trömner

Marcus den toom · 17th June 2014, 11:57 AM

A classical case of denial on the politicians part, for the nature of humans is always to exceed what they deem weaker than themselfs. It is what has driven mankind for thousands of years, to progress to a better future.

To deny this part of our history is to deny the lessons we have learned as well and that is a thought that even my young mind worries about.

And to state that such old weapons would encourage people to go insane is beyond sanity itself. I never saw anyone carying a hand cannon into a school!! The truth is that most of these horors occure because of neglected information and extensive and costly bureaucracy. Here in the netherlands for instance, we had a young boy shoot people at a mall. He was known to be having psychological problems, but the police gave him a weapon permit anyway!!!!

And this is not a unique instance, it happens all the time. Such troubled people have always existed, but only in our day and age they are somehow granted accces to MODERN firearms.

fernando · 17th June 2014, 05:29 PM

Amen

fernando · 18th June 2014, 04:47 PM

Are you already emailable, Michl ?

Andrew · 18th June 2014, 09:43 PM

I must close this thread as it violates Forum rules regarding political commentary.

Andrew
Vikingsword Staff

Lee · 20th June 2014, 05:57 PM

We will give this a try over here in this related but 'off topic' forum. 'Political' free speech about government practices and policies should be fair game as are those who deign to 'lead' us. Just do not get personal towards other members who hold a different view.

My personal view is that arms of all sorts are part - an important part - of our history and the history of the development of technology and warfare and to ignore this is to deliberately choose the path of ignorance. When you look at antique arms you often are looking at the 'leading edge' of a culture's materials technology. The underlying reason may be disturbing but it is as valid of us today as it was for our ancestors since the very beginnings of the working of materials to create tools.

fernando · 20th June 2014, 08:05 PM

Pondering on this subject, it may be that a timely allusion to such problematic fits well (or doesn't fit bad) in a paragraph within context, but its launching as a topic subject to discussion in the open forum will hardly have an innocuous end.
For even considering that, we are all arms collectors, we may find among us an ample range of preferences, some of them not necessarily combining so well.
It is not easy to please Greeks and Trojans at same time (a local saying).
So even considering the goodwill of the forum registar to reopen this thread, my personal desire is that it drops dead.
... This not meaning that we should ignore things; just separating the wheat from the chaff.

17th June 2014, 10:37 AM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Historic Firearms and Mankind – Academic and Cultural Politics in Germany Since the German Reunification in 1990, state and museum funds for all cultural belongings in common, and especially for the purchase of antique 'military'/arsenal firearms - no matter how old and important they may be - , have been crudely cut back. Military firearms are officially condemned as possibly raising aggressive feelings with museum visitors viewing them. The situation has aggravated, especially after those rampages acted by youngsters started. At Columbine high-school in Colorado, two senior students murdered 12 of their fellow students and one teacher in 1999. Moreover, they injured 24 students, with three other people being injured while attempting to escape. Eventually, the killers committed suicide. The German cultural authorities feel that those antique historical firearms may incite young people to go mad and act in killing frenzy (German: Amoklauf). In 2009, at Winnenden high-school, Southern Germany, and in a murder-suicide act, a 17-year old student shot 16 people imcluding himself. Actually, it was Swiss! cultural politicians who started that anti-historical firearms campaign in the 1990's. Consequently, large and important Swiss firearms collections have been banned from public exhibition and packed into the storage rooms. This happened to the large famous weapons collection at the Historisches Museum Berne, to the ample collections of the Swiss Landesmuseum Zurich and the Altes Zeughaus Solothurn, as well as to a other Swiss state museums. And it was the same sad story with German museums as well. By the early 1990's, almost all firearms have been withdrawn from the exhibition rooms of such important museums as the Bayerisches Nationalmuseum Munich, the Deutsches Historisches Museum/Altes Zeughaus Berlin or the wonderful arsenal collection at the Stadtmuseum/Zeughaus Munich - to name just a few of them. Most antique firearms, 300 to 600 years old, have even been withdrawn from the huge exhibition halls of the Bayrisches Armeemuseum Ingolstadt, only 30 km next to my home. They will never be on viewing again for at least the next 30 years! On the other hand, crossbows, edged weapons like swords and, of course, all kinds of armor, are still officially regarded as noble and gallant (German: edel), knightly or even kingly, and are not primarily defined as means of war, by both the official political and cultural Swiss and German authorities and the museums. Consequently, they are allowed to stay on exhibition, while antique firearms, even - or maybe especially - when they are the earliest ever made, like all guns in my collection, which holds not one single item that was manufactured after ca. 1720! Even the most antique firearms are officially condemned - politically, morally and culturally, and are regarded as endangering peaceful life and politics. The story is as sad as it is true. Most museum curators will look down in a highly suspicious way on any scholar asking to be granted access and do research on firearms and their accouterments. Many of those people, especially the so-called generation 1968, and of course female curators, even react personally and blatantly disgusted. Various times, I have been asked how I can manage to combine my academic interest in these items with my conscience, and have been affronted as being a firearms freak who is gaga about guns. Of course I have fired original 400 year-old muskets; is just part of my comprehensive research, and believe me: firing a matchlock musket that is 1.67 m long overall and weighs 1o kgs is an incomparable experience which leaves a lasting impression. Everybody who really knows me and both my personal and political serious creed realizes that I actually love and defend peace, as well as the rights of all political persecutees and refugees, that I respect all living beings, and especially humans, no matter what color their skin may be or what nation belong to. I have always fought for the good fight, and animal rights. I love and defend all animals, and especially cats, from the bottom of my heart! Not only am I a Christian and believe in God, I also graduated, among others, in Theology from Regensburg University in 1982. But I also love historical arsenal arms, just for their cultural, historical, technical, art historical and social importance; and they clearly document the fact that there are both sides to every medal, as well as every human being is, and will always be, giftet with both good and evil - the reverse of the medal. Best, Michael Trömner Last edited by fernando; 11th December 2015 at 05:50 PM.

18th June 2014, 09:43 PM	#5
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Mod Comment Re: Socio-Political Debate I must close this thread as it violates Forum rules regarding political commentary. Andrew Vikingsword Staff

20th June 2014, 05:57 PM	#6
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	Moved and Reopened with some Trepidation We will give this a try over here in this related but 'off topic' forum. 'Political' free speech about government practices and policies should be fair game as are those who deign to 'lead' us. Just do not get personal towards other members who hold a different view. My personal view is that arms of all sorts are part - an important part - of our history and the history of the development of technology and warfare and to ignore this is to deliberately choose the path of ignorance. When you look at antique arms you often are looking at the 'leading edge' of a culture's materials technology. The underlying reason may be disturbing but it is as valid of us today as it was for our ancestors since the very beginnings of the working of materials to create tools.

20th June 2014, 08:05 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	If i may Pondering on this subject, it may be that a timely allusion to such problematic fits well (or doesn't fit bad) in a paragraph within context, but its launching as a topic subject to discussion in the open forum will hardly have an innocuous end. For even considering that, we are all arms collectors, we may find among us an ample range of preferences, some of them not necessarily combining so well. It is not easy to please Greeks and Trojans at same time (a local saying). So even considering the goodwill of the forum registar to reopen this thread, my personal desire is that it drops dead. ... This not meaning that we should ignore things; just separating the wheat from the chaff.

17th June 2014, 11:57 AM	#2
Marcus den toom Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Netherlands Posts: 525	A classical case of denial on the politicians part, for the nature of humans is always to exceed what they deem weaker than themselfs. It is what has driven mankind for thousands of years, to progress to a better future. To deny this part of our history is to deny the lessons we have learned as well and that is a thought that even my young mind worries about. And to state that such old weapons would encourage people to go insane is beyond sanity itself. I never saw anyone carying a hand cannon into a school!! The truth is that most of these horors occure because of neglected information and extensive and costly bureaucracy. Here in the netherlands for instance, we had a young boy shoot people at a mall. He was known to be having psychological problems, but the police gave him a weapon permit anyway!!!! And this is not a unique instance, it happens all the time. Such troubled people have always existed, but only in our day and age they are somehow granted accces to MODERN firearms.

17th June 2014, 05:29 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Amen

18th June 2014, 04:47 PM	#4
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Are you already emailable, Michl ?