Kaskara - Translation?

[regihis]

Kaskara with indigenous iron

[TribalBlades]

i love the leather scabbard. the colour and texture are just beautiful.

[Dom]

Hi "regihis"
honestly, it should may be Arab Sudanese ... not easy to translate
the condition of the blade doesn't gave a little chance to the translator
too much rust and specially some places too much pitted
sorry, may be somebody else ?
anyway nice and interesting kaskara

à +

Dom

[Jim McDougall]

This is a very nice example of kaskara which in my opinion are likely from Sennar regions due to the Mamluk influences with use of thuluth, which is Arabic calligraphy used often as in these cases as decorative motif. The bordered panels here may be simply repititions of key phrases or possibly invocations, so may not be translatable (certain to be the case if Dom is not able to decipher).
There are examples of kaskara as shown in Briggs (1965) with this kind of thuluth on the triple fuller blades known as masri, and somehow classified by him as Hausa, but this seems of course incorrect.
The brass crossguards also seem a unique feature of the group of kaskara which seem to be forming a particular classification as noted, from Sennar regions and typically of Mahdist period into probably 1920s.

As always, I welcome other input as these are simply my own observations developed from research over time and especially formulated from discussions with Iain and Chris and thier tenacious work on these North African broadswords. Further research is ongoing, so I hope others will share examples from thier collections to continue our study.

All the best,
Jim

[Iain]

These small sized kaskara with thuluth are an odd item to me. They seem to invariably look exactly the same - brass guard, distinct leather wrap which is broader than many kaskara.

They also seem to be mostly blunt. Because of all this I'm a bit mystified about what their purpose would have been, or even if they are something of an item made at the turn of the century due to the desire by British service members and travelers for something to take back home... I'm not saying that is necessarily the case and I'm not trying to be negative about the piece under discussion. I'm just bringing it up as an idea.

For me these slot in with the croc kaskara that also have thin, thuluth blades and no edge. A bit of a mystery all in all.

[Mefidk]

Seems to me that there are a number of types of thuluth to be found on weapons from this area. This example is very typical of the most commonly encountered. As far as I can see this particular type of thuluth with the kind of chain pattern around the edges seems to be normally associated with certain kinds of Sudanese weapons, namely blunt kaskara, knives and triple knife sets, and haldies. I do have a small curved knife with a bone handle with this pattern but this has a definite edge and is quite usable (edge could have been applied later though).

So I can't add much to the question of whether these kaskara are really old or newer (1900) tourist items. What I think we can be sure of is that they were not used as weapons. They have no edge, and if my guess is right no peg holding the blade in the grip meaning the short tang would not hold in the hilt if put under any real stress - at least my example does not as I found out when the crocodile held on to the blade a little too tightly . They often also come with small crocodiles as scabbards which would be pretty impractical for daily use - e.g. legs would break off.
I know of provenanced examples dating to the turn of the centuary but not as yet before. I also have not seen this type of thuluth script on collections of arms with provenance from Omdurman or other Sudan wars battles prior to 1900.

All that said, it does not mean that these were not used for some other purpose or from non-Mahdist groups, perhaps used as status symbols e.g. slavers - but again why not decorate a real weapon instead?

Its still an open question as far as I'm concerned, but I guess that I'm leaning to turn of the 19C soldier's momentos. So it would be great to hear of earlier examples if they are out there and can prove this idea to be bogus?

There is one more interesting thing about the script. At least in my example it was translated to be repeated invocations of Allah, Mohammed, and Ali. The latter could be a useful clue since Sunni groups would not mention Ali. So perhaps this could be used to identify likely and unlikely ethnic groups as producers of these?

Chris

[Iain]

Hi Chris,

Great to hear your thoughts on these. Looking back on a few examples you are of course right.

The patterns seen on triple fuller or single fuller blades is different - and not the "chain" motif.

Just to illustrate - a little image from a takouba/kaskara blade (hope Wolf doesn't mind me using it ) and a flat croc kaskara I used to own.

I recall the same construction issues with a couple of knives that came with the aforementioned croc kaskara, can't recall if the kaskara itself lacked the hilt pin.

[Mefidk]

Thanks Iain - yes that's exactly what I was referring to - great you had the pictures to show it

[Iain]

Hi Chris,

Glad I could help illustrate your point. I can't recall, do you have any thuluth examples? I've only had the one mentioned above pass through my hands so sadly my experience with them is pretty lacking.

[Mefidk]

Iain - here's my thuluth kaskara of this type - with the chain pattern and crocodile scabbard. The writing appears to be a date 1123 (1650), something unknown followed a reference to a tomb. More than that I'm not sure. In the circles we have invocations to Allah, Mohammed and Ali, and the thuluth seems to repeat Allah & Mohammed.
Perhaps someone can figure out more?

[Mefidk]

Incidentally, while we are discussing kaskara and writing - I wonder what folk make of this one - pictures or writing? At one point the whole blade was decorated but now after many re-sharpenings all that remains is the pattern in the fuller extending all the way to the point - but what is it?

[regihis]

I have two daggers of Sudan
One of 1123 = 1711
In one these daggers the translation have references to Umm Durman = Omdurman. Omdurman founded by the Mahdi? I'snt a ancient city? How its possible?





Can my two daggers are the pair missing his sword Mefidk?

[Iain]

Hi Chris and Regihis,

On dates and blade inscriptions - I think these are probably references to saints or other figures, perhaps some events. However Regihis, I wouldn't take the date and the mention of the city to necessarily go together. Certainly I wouldn't interpret it as a date for the manufacture of your daggers.

On your second sword Chris - very interesting one! Reminds me a bit of this one:

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread...hlight=kaskara

Returning to the thuluth theme...

There are a few interesting points I've been thinking about that I thought were worth laying out.

1. In summary of what we've already discussed, it seems that there are two distinct styles of thuluth applied and that distinction seems to be in line with blade quality. It was applied to trade blades like the triple fuller Clauberg blade Wolf has kindly shared in the past. Here is another Clauberg blade from Stephen, a single fuller pattern this time.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8269


2. The stage when thuluth was applied interests me - on triple fuller blades with it, I have now seen several examples where the half moon stamps were applied AFTER the etching. This indicates to me the etching was not done in the same location as the mounts as I cannot think of another reason why the stamps would be applied after, partly obscuring some of the script.


3. Tribal attribution, I am aware of one period photo showing a good thuluth blade - it has an attribution in French to the man being from the Gâlièh tribe - the photo looks a bit staged. I cannot find anything about this group, even what part of Sudan they were/are from? Image is attached to this post.

4. If the thuluth style originated in Sennar, it is interesting to note that the forces of the Mahdi took some time and effort to capture the town. From reading Father Joseph Orthwalder's memoirs of his 10 years as a prisoner of the Mahdia we learn the Sennar was more or less ruined after the garrison fell to the Mahdist forces. As Orthwalder puts it:

"All that is left of Sennar are a few mud and sand heaps, and its very name has ceased to exist, although early in this century it was better known even than Dongola or Kordofan."

This allows for the interesting idea that perhaps the craftsmen who would have lived in Sennar then migrated to Omdurman?

I am digging through more period accounts as time allows.

All the best,

Iain

[Mefidk]

Regihis - it does indeed seem that our examples came from some very similar source, or at least the text that was copied did.

If your's mentions Omdurman, and mine a tomb then it does seem more likely that we have some evidence for post-Mahdi sourvenirs. So perhaps a translation will finally be able to finish this discussion - e.g. if it turns out that there is some mention of the Mahdi's tomb at Omdurman then we can be certain that these were made at the very earliest at at the very end of the 19C.

Perhaps Dom or some other learned folk with respect to Arabic could help but as far as I understand it the text near the hilt is written in an old but more modern script than that we are referring to as thuluth. Maybe we can get a better or more complete translation of these easier to read sections?


Iain - yes you are quite right about the possible Ethiopian connection. Great minds think alike - the sword you linked to was the reason I bought this one - thinking perhaps it was similar. Not easy to discern letters though so I'm not really sure yet what it is. The blade does seem to have had a long and active life though judging by the amount of material removed for sharpening.

Chris

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Mefidk

Perhaps Dom or some other learned folk with respect to Arabic could help

Hi Chris

after some difficulties ... HERE WE ARE

KHARTOUM SANA 1123 H. either KHARTOUM YEAR 1711 A.C.

DOREBA B OMDOUMAN either MADE IN OMDOURMAN

no mention about "tomb" ... "shrine" ... sorry

I don't guess that the date is related with fabrication
- the date has to be linked with Khartoum
- Omdouran linked with the place of blacksmith
no more ... at least, it's my point of view

very nice "épée"

à +

Dom

[Mefidk]

Many thanks Dom, this is really a big help

Still some mysteries to solve here w.r.t. Khartoum and that date (as far as I know it did not exist in 1711), but this does certainly seem to lend weight to the idea of solider's momentos produced after Omdurman. At least I cannot think of any good reason so many of these blades would have been produced in Omdurman prior to the British victory there. If produced under the Mahdi for some commemorative reason I guess they would at the very least mention him. So post 1898, which also fits with the fact that so far no-one has yet produced a provenanced example prior to 1900 (unless someone out there knows better that is). This also explains why there are so many of these around (not just kaskaras but other blades with the same or very similar writing).

Pity about the tomb, just goes to show that all translations (except for Dom's of course), should be taken with a pince of salt

[laEspadaAncha]

Hi Chris,

I have one of these as well, posted in this thread.



I'm not sure what or who it is in reference to, or if it can even help in your efforts, but a friend translated the handle to read, "Lion of Justice."

Cheers,

Chris

[Mefidk]

Thanks for the link Chris. It does seem to me that we are coming to land firmly on the side of these being made as soldier's souvenirs in the very early part of the 20th C.
I think that the 'Made in Omdurman' translation from Dom pretty well clinches it. In your case it seems the message was different, and perhaps you have a higher end, or at least different producer/area.
I can't see it clearly from the pictures, but I think that the thuluth on your blade is closer to the form seen on the fighting blades, and it does not seem to have the chain motif associated with most of the flat thuluth kaskaras. Brass guard is the same though. Looks like a flat non-functional blade though, made in the same way as the other examples with no peg to hold the blade in. I wonder if we have any more variants of these out there?

[regihis]

i paid 400 us$ for a tourist gift?

[Iain]

Originally Posted by regihis

i paid 400 us$ for a tourist gift?

We don't usually discuss prices on the forum. If these short kaskara were made for "export" they still have some age and an interesting story behind them. If you are not satisfied with the sword you have I guess you can always try to return it. For the figure you mentioned a large, fighting kaskara should not be too difficult to find.

[Mefidk]

These are still interesting historically, whether made for fighting or as momentos, and are attractive pieces as long as you don't expect anything sharp and deadly. As Iain says, perhaps you can return it, or sell it and buy a fighting kaskara if that is more to your taste.