Picked up in Tibet

Jerseyman · 4th May 2016, 11:59 PM

Hello all,

I've lurked for many years soaking up the accumulated wisdom of the forum - never felt I had anything to contribute other than more questions.

But I do now have some items in my collection that I would like to share and see if others can cast some light into the shadows of my ignorance

I thought I might start with something small, and one of the first things to make its way into my life.

I had the good fortune to spend a few weeks in Tibet in the mid 90s. I was warned before I went that at that time, any blades I purchased would almost certainly be confiscated when I crossed the border, unless they were new. As it was, I didn't see anything except for bazaar pieces aimed at the tourist market.

However, on the second day in Lhasa I spotted a couple of small items on a street stall and picked them up for a few pennies - less than the cost of a snack. This is the first piece. A tri-lobate arrowhead. I stuck it in a pocket where it then stayed for a good few months of travel.

Over the years it's surfaced a few times and triggered brief bouts of research. At first I assumed it was a local or Chinese arrow. I now have a couple of Chinese arrowheads, and have seen many others, and this does not seem to be a common weapon form from that part of the world (speaking from a position of little information though). Perhaps Tibetan arrows were of this form at some point - I'm hoping those with greater knowledge will be able to enlighten me.

A friend from the Arms & Armour Society thought it was Greek, and I briefly entertained the idea that this was a relic from one of Alexander's armies that somehow made its way north.

As my knowledge of arms increased I realised that an enormous number of modern copies of old designs come out of China and I came to the conclusion my piece was not original. Under certain lights the patination seems brushed on. The casting is poor - air bubbles in the mould. A hole in the socket as if to fix the head to the shaft - is that how they would have been attached? And of course consider where it was found - the Xizang Autonomous Region.

Then again, it doesn't feel fake - I've handled a number of items over the years where the weight, balance, design and thickness were clearly not right. The edges and point on this head are fine and sharp - exactly as I would expect on an efficient arrow. When I was there I kept checking back with the stall-holder whenever I passed and she never had anything else of interest - so not a conduit for replicas as far as I could tell. And why fake an arrow head? So much effort for so little reward.

Then it recently occurred to me that it did resemble the end of a phurba. A new line of research which led me to Tibetan amulets called thogchags/thokchas. And this I think is what I actually have - an amulet, not an arrowhead. If you google thogchag, among the many images you will find groups of amulets that look exactly like this piece. Now, maybe they are arrowheads repurposed as amulets, or maybe amulets designed to look like arrowheads, I don't know.

So possibly not a weapon at all - but still a fascinating piece of a far distant culture that has teased my mind for many years and led me down numerous dusty corridors of the internet, and into many a conversation I might never have had, in search of that final piece of the puzzle.

This is my current conclusion - but I would be interested if anyone has any knowledge to add to this story, or can point out any flaws in my logic.

RSWORD · 5th May 2016, 04:01 PM

Welcome to be forum and thanks for sharing your interesting items. I think your most recent development with this is spot on. Looks to be the blade of a phurbu.

Kubur · 7th May 2016, 09:44 AM

Hi Jersey,

You didnt give any dimensions.
Is it big? Maybe a scale would help?
I was thinking at a bolt for a crossbow.

Best,
Kubur

Jerseyman · 7th May 2016, 06:48 PM

Thanks for the responses gents - much appreciated.

You're absolutely right Kubur - my error. It's difficult to tell from the pictures - for some reason they came out rather large. I've not worked out how to get them smaller yet.

The length of the item is 44mm and the socket width is only 8mm.

The crossbow idea is intriguing - it hadn't occurred to me. I guess I always think of crossbow bolts as the western square pyramidal shape. I can't imagine an 8mm shaft being strong enough for a quarrel though. Unless it's a hunting bolt perhaps?

VANDOO · 13th May 2016, 03:15 PM

A INTERESTING BRONZE POINT. THE SIZE SEEMS A BIT SMALL FOR A PURBA AND THE CUT OUT ON ONE LOBE OF THE BLADE NOT CONSISTENT FOR PURBA. IT IS A BIT LARGER THAN THE NORMAL ARROWHEAD OF THE TYPE. ARROWS ARE SOMETIMES MODIFIED FOR USE AS A SIGNAL WITH STREAMERS ATTACHED OR DESIGNED TO MAKE A WHISTLING SOUND IN FLIGHT ,ALSO AS A SIGNAL THESE ARE 2 POSSIBILITIES.
PROBABLY NOT A SMALL SPEARHEAD AND ROMAN AND GREEK TRILOBED POINTS ARE USUALLY A BIT SMALLER AND HAVE DIFFERENT PATINA OFTEN FAKED BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF ORIGINALS AROUND TOO ITS THE SAME WITH CHINESE BRONZE POINTS. A NICE EXAMPLE AND A MYSTERY AND GOOD STORY ALWAYS ADDS TO THE INTEREST IN AN ITEM.

4th May 2016, 11:59 PM	#1
Jerseyman Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 97	Picked up in Tibet Hello all, I've lurked for many years soaking up the accumulated wisdom of the forum - never felt I had anything to contribute other than more questions. But I do now have some items in my collection that I would like to share and see if others can cast some light into the shadows of my ignorance I thought I might start with something small, and one of the first things to make its way into my life. I had the good fortune to spend a few weeks in Tibet in the mid 90s. I was warned before I went that at that time, any blades I purchased would almost certainly be confiscated when I crossed the border, unless they were new. As it was, I didn't see anything except for bazaar pieces aimed at the tourist market. However, on the second day in Lhasa I spotted a couple of small items on a street stall and picked them up for a few pennies - less than the cost of a snack. This is the first piece. A tri-lobate arrowhead. I stuck it in a pocket where it then stayed for a good few months of travel. Over the years it's surfaced a few times and triggered brief bouts of research. At first I assumed it was a local or Chinese arrow. I now have a couple of Chinese arrowheads, and have seen many others, and this does not seem to be a common weapon form from that part of the world (speaking from a position of little information though). Perhaps Tibetan arrows were of this form at some point - I'm hoping those with greater knowledge will be able to enlighten me. A friend from the Arms & Armour Society thought it was Greek, and I briefly entertained the idea that this was a relic from one of Alexander's armies that somehow made its way north. As my knowledge of arms increased I realised that an enormous number of modern copies of old designs come out of China and I came to the conclusion my piece was not original. Under certain lights the patination seems brushed on. The casting is poor - air bubbles in the mould. A hole in the socket as if to fix the head to the shaft - is that how they would have been attached? And of course consider where it was found - the Xizang Autonomous Region. Then again, it doesn't feel fake - I've handled a number of items over the years where the weight, balance, design and thickness were clearly not right. The edges and point on this head are fine and sharp - exactly as I would expect on an efficient arrow. When I was there I kept checking back with the stall-holder whenever I passed and she never had anything else of interest - so not a conduit for replicas as far as I could tell. And why fake an arrow head? So much effort for so little reward. Then it recently occurred to me that it did resemble the end of a phurba. A new line of research which led me to Tibetan amulets called thogchags/thokchas. And this I think is what I actually have - an amulet, not an arrowhead. If you google thogchag, among the many images you will find groups of amulets that look exactly like this piece. Now, maybe they are arrowheads repurposed as amulets, or maybe amulets designed to look like arrowheads, I don't know. So possibly not a weapon at all - but still a fascinating piece of a far distant culture that has teased my mind for many years and led me down numerous dusty corridors of the internet, and into many a conversation I might never have had, in search of that final piece of the puzzle. This is my current conclusion - but I would be interested if anyone has any knowledge to add to this story, or can point out any flaws in my logic. Attached Images

7th May 2016, 09:44 AM	#3
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Hi Jersey, You didnt give any dimensions. Is it big? Maybe a scale would help? I was thinking at a bolt for a crossbow. Best, Kubur Attached Images

5th May 2016, 04:01 PM	#2
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	Welcome to be forum and thanks for sharing your interesting items. I think your most recent development with this is spot on. Looks to be the blade of a phurbu.

7th May 2016, 06:48 PM	#4
Jerseyman Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 97	Thanks for the responses gents - much appreciated. You're absolutely right Kubur - my error. It's difficult to tell from the pictures - for some reason they came out rather large. I've not worked out how to get them smaller yet. The length of the item is 44mm and the socket width is only 8mm. The crossbow idea is intriguing - it hadn't occurred to me. I guess I always think of crossbow bolts as the western square pyramidal shape. I can't imagine an 8mm shaft being strong enough for a quarrel though. Unless it's a hunting bolt perhaps?

13th May 2016, 03:15 PM	#5
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A INTERESTING BRONZE POINT. THE SIZE SEEMS A BIT SMALL FOR A PURBA AND THE CUT OUT ON ONE LOBE OF THE BLADE NOT CONSISTENT FOR PURBA. IT IS A BIT LARGER THAN THE NORMAL ARROWHEAD OF THE TYPE. ARROWS ARE SOMETIMES MODIFIED FOR USE AS A SIGNAL WITH STREAMERS ATTACHED OR DESIGNED TO MAKE A WHISTLING SOUND IN FLIGHT ,ALSO AS A SIGNAL THESE ARE 2 POSSIBILITIES. PROBABLY NOT A SMALL SPEARHEAD AND ROMAN AND GREEK TRILOBED POINTS ARE USUALLY A BIT SMALLER AND HAVE DIFFERENT PATINA OFTEN FAKED BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF ORIGINALS AROUND TOO ITS THE SAME WITH CHINESE BRONZE POINTS. A NICE EXAMPLE AND A MYSTERY AND GOOD STORY ALWAYS ADDS TO THE INTEREST IN AN ITEM.