M1914 PATTON cavalry sword

Jim McDougall · 19th December 2022, 01:23 AM

In conjunction with a Canadian (British) M1908 cavalry sword (posted on the European forum), and as such exceeded the year 1900 cutoff for viable discussion, I hope I might continue here.

I had noted the M1913 Patton cavalry sword which was the American counterpart to the British M1908 cavalry sword, and wanted to post this example. The M1913 pattern was declared obsolete in 1918 but apparently the LF& C firm completed its contract in 1919..this is one of those swords.

The US 1913 'Patton' swords were never used in combat in WWI, nor in any combat, however were used in civil or police action in some 'events'.
In the early part of WWII, many of these were cut down and used as 'trench' or fighting knives, but do not have details handy.

I would note here that the Canadian M1908 posted by Will on European did have notable service as carried by the 19th Dragoons in a gallant cavalry charge in 1918. The British M1908 was used through the campaigns in Mesopotamia, known as the 'Allenby' sword.

I had the great honor of handling the M1912 officers version of the M1908 which was carried by Brig. Francis Ingall in a charge near Khyber Pass on the plains in 1931. He proudly shared this with me as he spoke of that event.

Will M · 19th December 2022, 05:41 AM

I once had a M1913 sword and it was a very well made sword. The double edged blade would be better for cutting than the 1908p. Of course both had the same reach of a lance with the arm extended.

Jim McDougall · 19th December 2022, 07:14 AM

The M1913 was regarded as an 'almost' perfect sword, but by the time it was produced, the cavalry charge had been largely abandoned officially due to the guns, especially machine guns which of course rendered such ineffective.

There is a great book which includes these, "The Last Bright Blades" by Joseph William Turner (1982) which describes American sword development 1904-1934.
The 1906 Ames saber was designed from the Civil War M1860 model, and the 'Patton' followed in 1914, which was influenced by early French heavy cavalry swords of Napoleonic period. This was in addition to influences of the French M1882 and M1896 cavalry swords, with which the French entered WWI.
As noted, these swords, like the M1908, were intended primarily for thrusting, as with the lance, and interestingly the lance was quite present through WWI in numerous instances. German uhlans (lancers) had remarkably long steel lances.

Certainly the British M1908 and M1912 were factored into the development influences of these pre-1900 forms in the Patton sword.

Your M1908 cavalry sword is outstanding and as so marked (to 19th Dragoons) is a wonderfully historic example of how the sword as a weapon still found use in certain cases.
Another book which well describes some other of these 20th century cases is "Charge to Glory" (1960) James D. Lunt, including one such charge in WWII.

kronckew · 19th December 2022, 11:39 AM

We've discussed cavalry charges before.
I seem to recall an early WW1 incident where a British cavalry troop with 1908s charged a newly formed German Lancer Uhlan, and drove them off. They escaped behind a farmer's barbed wire fence, which the British horses refused to jump over.

Cavalry charges in the more open east occurred up through WW2. (Not against tanks - that was propaganda)
Germany used MORE horses for transport of men and materials in WW2 than they did in WW1. The German army historians and news reporters were ordered not to film any horse-drawn activity by the Army, only of motorized vehicles and tanks, in order to seem more modern.

Jim McDougall · 19th December 2022, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

We've discussed cavalry charges before.
I seem to recall an early WW1 incident where a British cavalry troop with 1908s charged a newly formed German Lancer Uhlan, and drove them off. They escaped behind a farmer's barbed wire fence, which the British horses refused to jump over.

Cavalry charges in the more open east occurred up through WW2. (Not against tanks - that was propaganda)
Germany used MORE horses for transport of men and materials in WW2 than they did in WW1. The German army historians and news reporters were ordered not to film any horse-drawn activity by the Army, only of motorized vehicles and tanks, in order to seem more modern.

Thanks Wayne, the familiar phenomenon of propaganda led to many almost bizarre notions which became widely known in popular literature in post war times. One case was that Polish lancers attacked German tanks, one of the popular German propaganda renditions. Actually while a lancer 'unit', they were not using lances by that time in WWII.

Good story on the M1908.

With the M1913, some cavalry did have these at the front, but they were never used, nor were 'charges' permitted as per the resources I have seen.
It would be interesting to find out more on how many of these were cut down into fighting knives.

Jim McDougall · 19th December 2022, 05:02 PM

In the beginnings of WWII, before the famed Fairburn/Sykes knives in 1941 , there were no US fighting knives officially in place.
Apparently the stockpiles of the M1913 swords in arsenals were part of a government release of unused or 'scrap' steel, and a number of innovative makers decided to develop their own fighting knife conversions from the old swords.

While having heard of this years ago, and envisioning the huge bowl hilt and a shorter blade as such, it seems the blade typically was cut down into three sections, and honed into separate knives with varying hilt styles fashioned by them.
The most known seems to be the 'Anderson' by Tom Anderson of Glendale, Calif. who used an innovation injection molded plastic handle (ANDERSON/GLENDALE one side USA other).

Another was the San Antonio Iron Works version, which had a black bakelite handle with brass horsehead.

Not sure if others, but these are what I have found so far. These are highly collectible, hard to find and accordingly, pricey.

It seems that the 'Patton' sword, though mostly made at Springfield, had a contract to LF & C for 93,000 from 1917-18.......most of these (as my example shown) are marked 1918 or 1919. It is unclear how many were completed as obviously the war ended 1918.....but mine marked 1919 suggests they continued production.

"Knives of the US Military WWII", Michael Silvey, has one of the first image on p.222.

Typically I would resist entering WWII militaria on these forums, however the reason for bringing these up is that it illustrates perhaps the reason for the relative scarcity of the M1913 Patton swords as I posted in OP.

Will M · 19th December 2022, 05:09 PM

Jim that's interesting that some Patton swords were converted into knives.
Reminds me of very old dirks that also use sword blades dating to the 16-1700's.

Jim McDougall · 19th December 2022, 05:50 PM

Exactly Will, this is a long standing tradition of repurposing of old or damaged swords so as not to waste the valuable blades. While swords became essentially obsolete, there was always a need for knives, and in the case of the dirk, they were often left a bit longer than daggers.

In Scotland this was well known and the Scottish dirk became a form of its own, however early examples often used the blades of the heavy two hand claymore, while often these blades went to the basket hilt swords.

It would be impossible to list and discuss all the examples of sword blades repurposed into knives, nor for that matter all the forms of weaponry and ordnance that was repurposed or fashioned into 'trench art' etc. but here are two examples of sword into knife or short sword/dirk.

First is a composite of briquet grip, three bar cavalry hilt and cut down Spanish dragoon blade c. 1780 fashioned into a short sword type weapon.
Second is a British hanger cut down into naval dirk early 1700s.
While these have been discussed on the Euro forum they meet the standard for chronological demarcation ...........while these later period examples of course do not, thus are placed here as novelties in the proper context.

19th December 2022, 01:23 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	M1914 PATTON cavalry sword In conjunction with a Canadian (British) M1908 cavalry sword (posted on the European forum), and as such exceeded the year 1900 cutoff for viable discussion, I hope I might continue here. I had noted the M1913 Patton cavalry sword which was the American counterpart to the British M1908 cavalry sword, and wanted to post this example. The M1913 pattern was declared obsolete in 1918 but apparently the LF& C firm completed its contract in 1919..this is one of those swords. The US 1913 'Patton' swords were never used in combat in WWI, nor in any combat, however were used in civil or police action in some 'events'. In the early part of WWII, many of these were cut down and used as 'trench' or fighting knives, but do not have details handy. I would note here that the Canadian M1908 posted by Will on European did have notable service as carried by the 19th Dragoons in a gallant cavalry charge in 1918. The British M1908 was used through the campaigns in Mesopotamia, known as the 'Allenby' sword. I had the great honor of handling the M1912 officers version of the M1908 which was carried by Brig. Francis Ingall in a charge near Khyber Pass on the plains in 1931. He proudly shared this with me as he spoke of that event. Attached Images

19th December 2022, 05:02 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	US M1913 PATTON repurposed to fighting knives In the beginnings of WWII, before the famed Fairburn/Sykes knives in 1941 , there were no US fighting knives officially in place. Apparently the stockpiles of the M1913 swords in arsenals were part of a government release of unused or 'scrap' steel, and a number of innovative makers decided to develop their own fighting knife conversions from the old swords. While having heard of this years ago, and envisioning the huge bowl hilt and a shorter blade as such, it seems the blade typically was cut down into three sections, and honed into separate knives with varying hilt styles fashioned by them. The most known seems to be the 'Anderson' by Tom Anderson of Glendale, Calif. who used an innovation injection molded plastic handle (ANDERSON/GLENDALE one side USA other). Another was the San Antonio Iron Works version, which had a black bakelite handle with brass horsehead. Not sure if others, but these are what I have found so far. These are highly collectible, hard to find and accordingly, pricey. It seems that the 'Patton' sword, though mostly made at Springfield, had a contract to LF & C for 93,000 from 1917-18.......most of these (as my example shown) are marked 1918 or 1919. It is unclear how many were completed as obviously the war ended 1918.....but mine marked 1919 suggests they continued production. "Knives of the US Military WWII", Michael Silvey, has one of the first image on p.222. Typically I would resist entering WWII militaria on these forums, however the reason for bringing these up is that it illustrates perhaps the reason for the relative scarcity of the M1913 Patton swords as I posted in OP. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 19th December 2022 at 06:06 PM.

19th December 2022, 05:50 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	Exactly Will, this is a long standing tradition of repurposing of old or damaged swords so as not to waste the valuable blades. While swords became essentially obsolete, there was always a need for knives, and in the case of the dirk, they were often left a bit longer than daggers. In Scotland this was well known and the Scottish dirk became a form of its own, however early examples often used the blades of the heavy two hand claymore, while often these blades went to the basket hilt swords. It would be impossible to list and discuss all the examples of sword blades repurposed into knives, nor for that matter all the forms of weaponry and ordnance that was repurposed or fashioned into 'trench art' etc. but here are two examples of sword into knife or short sword/dirk. First is a composite of briquet grip, three bar cavalry hilt and cut down Spanish dragoon blade c. 1780 fashioned into a short sword type weapon. Second is a British hanger cut down into naval dirk early 1700s. While these have been discussed on the Euro forum they meet the standard for chronological demarcation ...........while these later period examples of course do not, thus are placed here as novelties in the proper context. Attached Images

19th December 2022, 05:41 AM	#2
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	I once had a M1913 sword and it was a very well made sword. The double edged blade would be better for cutting than the 1908p. Of course both had the same reach of a lance with the arm extended.

19th December 2022, 07:14 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	The M1913 was regarded as an 'almost' perfect sword, but by the time it was produced, the cavalry charge had been largely abandoned officially due to the guns, especially machine guns which of course rendered such ineffective. There is a great book which includes these, "The Last Bright Blades" by Joseph William Turner (1982) which describes American sword development 1904-1934. The 1906 Ames saber was designed from the Civil War M1860 model, and the 'Patton' followed in 1914, which was influenced by early French heavy cavalry swords of Napoleonic period. This was in addition to influences of the French M1882 and M1896 cavalry swords, with which the French entered WWI. As noted, these swords, like the M1908, were intended primarily for thrusting, as with the lance, and interestingly the lance was quite present through WWI in numerous instances. German uhlans (lancers) had remarkably long steel lances. Certainly the British M1908 and M1912 were factored into the development influences of these pre-1900 forms in the Patton sword. Your M1908 cavalry sword is outstanding and as so marked (to 19th Dragoons) is a wonderfully historic example of how the sword as a weapon still found use in certain cases. Another book which well describes some other of these 20th century cases is "Charge to Glory" (1960) James D. Lunt, including one such charge in WWII.

19th December 2022, 11:39 AM	#4
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,184	We've discussed cavalry charges before. I seem to recall an early WW1 incident where a British cavalry troop with 1908s charged a newly formed German Lancer Uhlan, and drove them off. They escaped behind a farmer's barbed wire fence, which the British horses refused to jump over. Cavalry charges in the more open east occurred up through WW2. (Not against tanks - that was propaganda) Germany used MORE horses for transport of men and materials in WW2 than they did in WW1. The German army historians and news reporters were ordered not to film any horse-drawn activity by the Army, only of motorized vehicles and tanks, in order to seem more modern.

19th December 2022, 05:09 PM	#7
Will M Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: In the wee woods north of Napanee Ontario Posts: 391	Jim that's interesting that some Patton swords were converted into knives. Reminds me of very old dirks that also use sword blades dating to the 16-1700's.