Please help ID mid-19th C. saber

celtan · 24th September 2008, 04:08 AM

Any ideas? Doesn't seem to have any marks.

chevalier · 24th September 2008, 04:51 AM

im going to take a stab in the dark and say its french (or perhaps american)

celtan · 24th September 2008, 04:07 PM

It was ID'ed as a French 1798, which it clearly isn't. This looks like a mid 19th C. blade. The crux of the matter, seems to me, lies in the strangely shaped pommel.

Jim McDougall · 24th September 2008, 06:51 PM

I agree with Manuel, the blade is typical mid 19th century cavalry sabre form as produced in Solingen (very much like that of the US M1840 "Old Wristbreaker"). Interestly, when that pattern was proposed, many of the first examples issued were Solingen products until Ames Sword Co. got production going.
As Chevalier has noted, the style of the hilt suggests American officers swords such as the M1852, and many. American military swords of the 19th century followed French patterns.
The deeply canted pommel and the scabbard with single carrying ring, as well as the blade being of the Solingen form mentioned, in addition to the heavy bullion sword knot all together suggest to me this might be German. I dont have Bezdek or some of the references at hand to confirm that but hopefully someone out there in 'ID' land does

If not German, possibly made there for export?

Henk · 24th September 2008, 08:27 PM

I found a similar sabre in "Swords in colour" by Robert Wilkinson-Latham.
The description is: Russia, Sabre of the infanterie, model 1865.
Typical is the strong bended end of the hilt, found on German and Russian sabres.

celtan · 24th September 2008, 11:30 PM

Hi Guys,

Was the pommel identical to the one on this example?

Today, while browsing through the Old Swords Database, I was able to find a virtually identical sword, although in much better shape. They IDed same as a a Dutch M1852 Infantry saber.

This is their data:

http://www.oldswords.com/database/viewItem.php?id=9250

WHITE METAL HILT WITH FLORAL DECORATION CRACK TO POMMEL CURVED BLADE BY HORSTER, RIBBED HORN GRIP WITH WIRE BINDING WITH ITS BULLION KNOT.

Further information provided:

This particular saber was instituted in 1852 for all officers of Infantry / militia / rifle corps (jagers), to replace the former model 1820 epee general model, and as off the 1860s to marines.

Original for infantery officers, the hilt was copper and for militia in silver.

Officers of the riflecorps wore the same as infantry, however the hilt was gold plated and the blade highly decorated. These saber types are still in ceremonial use in changed design.

From 1852 1880, the scabbard had two rings, afterwards the bottom rings was cancelled for ALL swords (excl some generals).

The sword was replaced in 1895, except for the riflecorps and initially militia (abandoned 1907).

Details
Nation Dutch
Arm Infantry
Model 1852
Hilt Type Single
Pommel Ball
Blade 1 Fuller
Circa 1852 to 1895

Henk · 24th September 2008, 11:40 PM

Celtan,

I doubt this sabre is Dutch. It has some similarities but it is a different one.

fernando · 25th September 2008, 02:11 AM

Have you tried to contact Jean Bink, Manolo ?
jeanbck@hotmail.com
It appears that he knows a lot about (this type of) European swords.
I am not revealing any secret by quoting his adress, as it figures in this Forum 'Ethnographic Edged Weapons Resource Site' .
Fernando

celtan · 25th September 2008, 03:10 PM

Hi Guys,

No doubt whatsoever. This one is Dutch. The site has several swords and their pics, I compared them to mine and all the details are there. They state the sword is based on the Russian M1826.

Also found a pic on Wither's book of a russian tsarist Infantry M1855 sword, very, very similar to this one, albeit the pommel was flat.

I'll contact the guy nonetheless.

Thanks!

M

BTW: Just changed the name of my image folder in Photobucket, so the first images may not load. The new address is
http://s353.photobucket.com/albums/r...antry%20Saber/

Henk · 25th September 2008, 07:59 PM

Such a dutch sabre with no marks????

fernando · 25th September 2008, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

Such a dutch sabre with no marks????

No marks?

Aren't those two mark punctions, by the forte?
Or am i getting senile before noticing it ?

Can't you magnify those, Manolo?
Fernando

celtan · 26th September 2008, 03:35 AM

Haven't found any marks so far. The two pictures were taken from the oldswords site, and are identical to my saber, right down to the portepee...

Best

M

24th September 2008, 04:08 AM	#1
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Please help ID mid-19th C. saber Any ideas? Doesn't seem to have any marks.

25th September 2008, 03:10 PM	#9
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hi Guys, No doubt whatsoever. This one is Dutch. The site has several swords and their pics, I compared them to mine and all the details are there. They state the sword is based on the Russian M1826. Also found a pic on Wither's book of a russian tsarist Infantry M1855 sword, very, very similar to this one, albeit the pommel was flat. I'll contact the guy nonetheless. Thanks! M BTW: Just changed the name of my image folder in Photobucket, so the first images may not load. The new address is http://s353.photobucket.com/albums/r...antry%20Saber/ Attached Images Last edited by celtan; 25th September 2008 at 05:53 PM.

26th September 2008, 03:35 AM	#12
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Haven't found any marks so far. The two pictures were taken from the oldswords site, and are identical to my saber, right down to the portepee... Best M Last edited by celtan; 27th September 2008 at 12:31 AM.

24th September 2008, 04:51 AM	#2
chevalier Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 119	im going to take a stab in the dark and say its french (or perhaps american)

24th September 2008, 04:07 PM	#3
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	It was ID'ed as a French 1798, which it clearly isn't. This looks like a mid 19th C. blade. The crux of the matter, seems to me, lies in the strangely shaped pommel.

24th September 2008, 06:51 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,946	I agree with Manuel, the blade is typical mid 19th century cavalry sabre form as produced in Solingen (very much like that of the US M1840 "Old Wristbreaker"). Interestly, when that pattern was proposed, many of the first examples issued were Solingen products until Ames Sword Co. got production going. As Chevalier has noted, the style of the hilt suggests American officers swords such as the M1852, and many. American military swords of the 19th century followed French patterns. The deeply canted pommel and the scabbard with single carrying ring, as well as the blade being of the Solingen form mentioned, in addition to the heavy bullion sword knot all together suggest to me this might be German. I dont have Bezdek or some of the references at hand to confirm that but hopefully someone out there in 'ID' land does If not German, possibly made there for export?

24th September 2008, 08:27 PM	#5
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	I found a similar sabre in "Swords in colour" by Robert Wilkinson-Latham. The description is: Russia, Sabre of the infanterie, model 1865. Typical is the strong bended end of the hilt, found on German and Russian sabres.

24th September 2008, 11:30 PM	#6
celtan Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: PR, USA Posts: 679	Hi Guys, Was the pommel identical to the one on this example? Today, while browsing through the Old Swords Database, I was able to find a virtually identical sword, although in much better shape. They IDed same as a a *Dutch M1852 Infantry saber. This is their data: http://www.oldswords.com/database/viewItem.php?id=9250 WHITE METAL HILT WITH FLORAL DECORATION CRACK TO POMMEL CURVED BLADE BY HORSTER, RIBBED HORN GRIP WITH WIRE BINDING WITH ITS BULLION KNOT. Further information provided: This particular saber was instituted in 1852 for all officers of Infantry / militia / rifle corps (jagers), to replace the former model 1820 epee general model, and as off the 1860s to marines. Original for infantery officers, the hilt was copper* and for militia in silver. Officers of the riflecorps wore the same as infantry, however the hilt was gold plated and the blade highly decorated. These saber types are still in ceremonial use in changed design. From 1852 1880, the scabbard had two rings, afterwards the bottom rings was cancelled for ALL swords (excl some generals). The sword was replaced in 1895, except for the riflecorps and initially militia (abandoned 1907). Details Nation Dutch Arm Infantry Model 1852 Hilt Type Single Pommel Ball Blade 1 Fuller Circa 1852 to 1895

24th September 2008, 11:40 PM	#7
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Celtan, I doubt this sabre is Dutch. It has some similarities but it is a different one.

25th September 2008, 02:11 AM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Have you tried to contact Jean Bink, Manolo ? jeanbck@hotmail.com It appears that he knows a lot about (this type of) European swords. I am not revealing any secret by quoting his adress, as it figures in this Forum 'Ethnographic Edged Weapons Resource Site' . Fernando

25th September 2008, 07:59 PM	#10
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Such a dutch sabre with no marks????