Coral&turquoise dagger

erlikhan · 15th February 2005, 11:49 AM

This dagger is from year 1714 (dated Islamic calendar 1127). Most samples are Turcoman ( eastern Turkey, Azerbaijan and northern Iran).This one is over the average with its decoration quality, condition and age.I acquired it from the same auction with the swords i tell about, again for price of two silver scabbarded normal kindjals ( I think kindjal prices are everywhere or on internet around same levels, like a currency, so it is a way to describe another weapon's price

) . All scabbard is gold washed silver. The front is patinated more and would look better when cleaned properly. There are 110 corals and around 30-35 turquoise and green stones(jade?). Two big turquoises are signed and engraved. Steel an interesting type damascus,which is rather faint or small shapes ,not seen well in close pictures, but better in distant ones. Blade 27, total 43 cm. And gold koftgari on both sides,with inscriptions. (Here we come to the point where I need Kamil once more

,just like I will continue to need till I learn to read Arabic alphabet somehow).

http://www.pbase.com/erlik30/inbox

regards

tom hyle · 15th February 2005, 02:49 PM

Any commentary on why the corals are traditionally shaped like seeds?

Kamil · 15th February 2005, 10:25 PM

Erlikhan,
nice piece, indeed. The inscriptions is not to easy to read as a whole. It seems that the first picture (#...419) shows its final part. The beginning (#...420) is without any doubt, "Muhammad rasul Allah". I'd love to see more details of the middle section of the first part to say anything more. The end of this part can be "'ala Allah" (or Ali ... Allah, but this less probable).
The other side completely enigmatic at the first sight (with exception of the date), but I will think about it.

ariel · 15th February 2005, 10:55 PM

That's what I call OSTENTATIOUS! Some of the Ottoman weapons were so artistically overdone that one would just hesitate to take them out of the house and use them as weapons. But in their own barbaric and kitschy way they are remarkably attractive, and this one is a splendid example of the prevailing taste of the Empire.

Just a question: it seems to me that the koftgari is remarkably intact and even actively peeling (first close-up of the blade, upper edge). I am afraid to ask, but is it possible that the koftgari is new?
Is it just my impression or the use of corals was concentrated in 3 places: Balkans, Egypt (Mameluks) and Northern Turkey?

erlikhan · 15th February 2005, 11:35 PM

Why like seed? Interesting question. i will ask about it to somebody.
Balkans right, Egypt, i dont know, but instead of northern Turkey, eastern would be correct, and most intensive among all. When i examine koftgari, i can see some erroded parts, which have got thinner remains or gone completely(example. pic.419 upper side) In fact not only koftgari, but everything is intact and very good preserved. Not a single pitting ,rust, nick on the blade.Never used. i bet i am the most humble owner of it since its birth

i showed it to experts whom i trust most, and there is no problem. But on what i depend most, i have not seen any special or ordinary villager sample without silver or gold koftgari till now. Good like this koftgari, or just a little, simple work, but all have a kind of koftgari on both sides . It is impossible for a coralled dagger with so richly decorated high grade silver scabbard, and good steel to be made without koftgari.
Kamil, do you mean you can't see the inscriptions on pic. 420 and need closer view?

tom hyle · 16th February 2005, 02:14 AM

Yep, even the flat bladed letter opener ones I've seen have koftgari at the blade base.

ariel · 16th February 2005, 02:39 AM

Ottoman weapons were, as a rule, much "richer" than Persian and the latter frowned upon such "effeminacy". Prophet Mohammed was also not very fond of richly decorated swords, especially with golden or silver handles.
Elgood ("The arms and armour of Arabia", p. 21) recalls Stocklein's rendition of an incident when in 1515, Shah Ismail sent Sultan Selim I of Turkey(Selim the Grim) a heavily jewelled sword as an insulting present, hinting at unwarlike and effeminate Ottoman customs. Elgood suggests a different interpretation of the insult: giving a richly decorated sword was Ismail's way to say that he regarded Selim as his vassal.
Wrong message!!! Ismail was defeated by Selim who proceeded to conquer the entire Anatolia, Kurdistan and Egypt. Richly decorated Ottoman weapons were nothing to laugh about especially when wielded by the Turks....
As to Egypt, Astvatsaturyan's book shows a gorgeous Mameluke Kilij wit a profusion of coral decorations and I distinctly remember Artzi (Oriental_arms) offering a similar one. Ottoman influence, no doubt.
Glad to know that I was mistaken and the koftgari is old and genuine. Congratulations! Marvelous dagger!

erlikhan · 16th February 2005, 09:16 PM

Thanks for the pleasant words about the dagger.
http://www.pbase.com/erlik30/inbox . i uploaded the pic. of my old coralled dagger . its corals are lowest quality, not artistically processed, just cut from necklace and placed, blue ones just beads instead of turquouise,scabbard white metal but still silver koftgari on both sides.
Shah Ismail doesn't send only jewelled sword, but also women dresses to insult, while Ottoman army was on the way to east. So the meaning must be a bit ahead the borders of a political superiority declaration. Selim replies him, by sending solid golden hashish accesories, meaning advisors of Ismail should be all drug addicts, which could be the only explanation for why they drive Ismail act so wrong to prepare his own end.
regards

ariel · 17th February 2005, 04:44 AM

Gosh, these two guys were so subtle!
My wife gave me a book " Home repairs for dummies " for my birthday. Do you think she was trying to tell me something?

Conogre · 17th February 2005, 06:59 AM

You made me spit iced tea all over my keyboard again! LOL!
A friend sent me a switchblade knife as a present today with a safety on it....I KNOW he was trying to tell me something!**grin**

erlikhan · 29th June 2005, 10:12 AM

There were missing turquoises and corals (around 25), with empty or dark red wax filled holes. I made them completed by a master, and the scabbard's very heavy patina cleared,revealing the gilding, which is thick and complete to my luck. Attached pictures are the situation 2 months after the restoration. Patina has slightly restarted in especially crowded parts.
regards

15th February 2005, 11:49 AM	#1
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Coral&turquoise dagger This dagger is from year 1714 (dated Islamic calendar 1127). Most samples are Turcoman ( eastern Turkey, Azerbaijan and northern Iran).This one is over the average with its decoration quality, condition and age.I acquired it from the same auction with the swords i tell about, again for price of two silver scabbarded normal kindjals ( I think kindjal prices are everywhere or on internet around same levels, like a currency, so it is a way to describe another weapon's price ) . All scabbard is gold washed silver. The front is patinated more and would look better when cleaned properly. There are 110 corals and around 30-35 turquoise and green stones(jade?). Two big turquoises are signed and engraved. Steel an interesting type damascus,which is rather faint or small shapes ,not seen well in close pictures, but better in distant ones. Blade 27, total 43 cm. And gold koftgari on both sides,with inscriptions. (Here we come to the point where I need Kamil once more ,just like I will continue to need till I learn to read Arabic alphabet somehow). http://www.pbase.com/erlik30/inbox regards Last edited by erlikhan; 15th February 2005 at 04:57 PM.

15th February 2005, 11:35 PM	#5
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Why like seed? Interesting question. i will ask about it to somebody. Balkans right, Egypt, i dont know, but instead of northern Turkey, eastern would be correct, and most intensive among all. When i examine koftgari, i can see some erroded parts, which have got thinner remains or gone completely(example. pic.419 upper side) In fact not only koftgari, but everything is intact and very good preserved. Not a single pitting ,rust, nick on the blade.Never used. i bet i am the most humble owner of it since its birth i showed it to experts whom i trust most, and there is no problem. But on what i depend most, i have not seen any special or ordinary villager sample without silver or gold koftgari till now. Good like this koftgari, or just a little, simple work, but all have a kind of koftgari on both sides . It is impossible for a coralled dagger with so richly decorated high grade silver scabbard, and good steel to be made without koftgari. Kamil, do you mean you can't see the inscriptions on pic. 420 and need closer view? Last edited by erlikhan; 16th February 2005 at 02:14 AM.

16th February 2005, 02:39 AM	#7
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ottoman weapons were, as a rule, much "richer" than Persian and the latter frowned upon such "effeminacy". Prophet Mohammed was also not very fond of richly decorated swords, especially with golden or silver handles. Elgood ("The arms and armour of Arabia", p. 21) recalls Stocklein's rendition of an incident when in 1515, Shah Ismail sent Sultan Selim I of Turkey(Selim the Grim) a heavily jewelled sword as an insulting present, hinting at unwarlike and effeminate Ottoman customs. Elgood suggests a different interpretation of the insult: giving a richly decorated sword was Ismail's way to say that he regarded Selim as his vassal. Wrong message!!! Ismail was defeated by Selim who proceeded to conquer the entire Anatolia, Kurdistan and Egypt. Richly decorated Ottoman weapons were nothing to laugh about especially when wielded by the Turks.... As to Egypt, Astvatsaturyan's book shows a gorgeous Mameluke Kilij wit a profusion of coral decorations and I distinctly remember Artzi (Oriental_arms) offering a similar one. Ottoman influence, no doubt. Glad to know that I was mistaken and the koftgari is old and genuine. Congratulations! Marvelous dagger! Last edited by ariel; 16th February 2005 at 02:53 AM.

29th June 2005, 10:12 AM	#11
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	There were missing turquoises and corals (around 25), with empty or dark red wax filled holes. I made them completed by a master, and the scabbard's very heavy patina cleared,revealing the gilding, which is thick and complete to my luck. Attached pictures are the situation 2 months after the restoration. Patina has slightly restarted in especially crowded parts. regards Attached Images

15th February 2005, 02:49 PM	#2
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Any commentary on why the corals are traditionally shaped like seeds?

15th February 2005, 10:25 PM	#3
Kamil Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Warsaw Posts: 33	Erlikhan, nice piece, indeed. The inscriptions is not to easy to read as a whole. It seems that the first picture (#...419) shows its final part. The beginning (#...420) is without any doubt, "Muhammad rasul Allah". I'd love to see more details of the middle section of the first part to say anything more. The end of this part can be "'ala Allah" (or Ali ... Allah, but this less probable). The other side completely enigmatic at the first sight (with exception of the date), but I will think about it.

15th February 2005, 10:55 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	That's what I call OSTENTATIOUS! Some of the Ottoman weapons were so artistically overdone that one would just hesitate to take them out of the house and use them as weapons. But in their own barbaric and kitschy way they are remarkably attractive, and this one is a splendid example of the prevailing taste of the Empire. Just a question: it seems to me that the koftgari is remarkably intact and even actively peeling (first close-up of the blade, upper edge). I am afraid to ask, but is it possible that the koftgari is new? Is it just my impression or the use of corals was concentrated in 3 places: Balkans, Egypt (Mameluks) and Northern Turkey?

16th February 2005, 02:14 AM	#6
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Yep, even the flat bladed letter opener ones I've seen have koftgari at the blade base.

16th February 2005, 09:16 PM	#8
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	Thanks for the pleasant words about the dagger. http://www.pbase.com/erlik30/inbox . i uploaded the pic. of my old coralled dagger . its corals are lowest quality, not artistically processed, just cut from necklace and placed, blue ones just beads instead of turquouise,scabbard white metal but still silver koftgari on both sides. Shah Ismail doesn't send only jewelled sword, but also women dresses to insult, while Ottoman army was on the way to east. So the meaning must be a bit ahead the borders of a political superiority declaration. Selim replies him, by sending solid golden hashish accesories, meaning advisors of Ismail should be all drug addicts, which could be the only explanation for why they drive Ismail act so wrong to prepare his own end. regards

17th February 2005, 04:44 AM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Gosh, these two guys were so subtle! My wife gave me a book " Home repairs for dummies " for my birthday. Do you think she was trying to tell me something?

17th February 2005, 06:59 AM	#10
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	You made me spit iced tea all over my keyboard again! LOL! A friend sent me a switchblade knife as a present today with a safety on it....I KNOW he was trying to tell me something!grin