West India Company Cutlass: What is this Marking?

Jim McDougall · 25th July 2010, 09:13 PM

Hi, my name is Jim and I am a weapons research addict

Here is one from a couple of years ago, BBJW posted it and proved to be an intriguing item, but as with many, left unresolved.

We now know that the WIDC markings stand for West India Dock Company, and #38 a rack or issue number. It appears to be one of the private type purchases of these brass hilt, ribbed iron grip cutlasses which were used in the early years of the 19th century, and seem to have subtle variation. Some seem to have been used by the Customs Dept.

At issue here is the fascinating marking, an extremely stylized boat, with the mast and spar a deliberately significant cross. As has been discussed at times through the years, certain elements were often used in merchants marks, which were used in early trade ventures to mark thier merchandise and materials, the cross sometimes being one of them.

In searching through references for use of a boat in early makers marks, I found one, not quite as stylized in the boat image, but with the initial M above it. This was believed to the maker Gemlich in Munich c. 1540. Obviously this mark does not signal it being a 16th century blade, but notes the interesting precedent, which has remote potential for suggestion associated in the style of this marking.

I'd like to renew the search for the origin and significance of this marking. It is of course not likely a makers mark, but perhaps a symbol for marking the property of WIDC? Anyone out there ever seen similar marks or know anything of this company?

Would really appreciate input........ahoy Mark, and BJ if you're out there!!

All the best,
Jim

Anandalal N. · 26th July 2010, 04:17 PM

Hi Jim, Welcome to the forum.

Do you have better images of the marking. I see that it has the initials F and H which seem to be etter executed than the boat itself. Looking for the letter style may give an idea of the date; ot at least a - not older than ... - date.

Jim McDougall · 26th July 2010, 04:48 PM

Hi Anandalal,
Thank you responding, and actually these are the only images I have from BBJWs earlier post, I am hoping if he is still out there somewhere he'll see this.
Very good suggestion on the lettering....if I recall we had thought perhaps the letters might have been Friedrich (?) Holler of Solingen, but could not find evidence that that firm had ever used the boat theme.

At that point we moved toward the merchant mark idea, as these markings in earlier times had often used religious/talismanic ideographs that used the numeral four atop a symbolic, or sometimes a cross, cf. the cross and orb, and these with initials of individual or firm for the merchant. These were in a way the forerunners of trademarks.

I am hoping that in the literal sea of readers out there, somebody might recognize this boat marking!

In the meantime, good observations on the lettering!!! and thank you again.

All the very best,
JIm

M ELEY · 27th July 2010, 07:33 AM

Wow, Jim! A nice corrigated iron hilt cutlass...you have my attention!

I have seen this mark before in a very strange context. A few years back, I saw an axe that was listed as a boarding axe despite it not having the typical spike of an attack battle axe. It looked more like a lathing hammer/axe, but did have some provenance as coming from a British naval yard that built ships. It dated to around 1850, I imagine. It had this marking, I am sure, but perhaps slightly different. I'll try and find that long-ago link. I must say that I have not seen this marking since. Not much info, I know, but fascinating none-the-same. Much like the WIDC marking that has quasi-naval provenance, it could definately go along with the customs connection you mention, Jim or perhaps coast-guard??

Norman McCormick · 27th July 2010, 05:21 PM

Hi,
I do like a good cutlass!! Many years ago I wrote to the Royal Armouries enclosing a photograph, some of you might remember the inky stick thing and the funny paper with an image on it from those days

, requesting some information on this cutlass blade. Here is part of the reply, " From other parts of this article you will appreciate that precise identification of this type of blade is quite difficult. I enclose a photocopied page from P G W Annis', Naval Swords 1970 (p.61). This shows a similar blade but with a 'brass stirrup hilt' (it shows a corrugated iron hilt also). In fact we have a large number of these swords with 'various' types of blades. We believe they were originally issued to the 'Coastguard' but by 1865 had been fitted with more nearly straight cut-down cavalry sword blades and issued to the Army Hospital Corps." The tip of the cutlass that Jim posted I think points to a date somewhere in the second or third quarter of the 19thC. From the rest of this correspondence from the Royal Armouries it would appear that many blades of this type were 'outsourced' to innumerable small artisans for anything from complete blade manufacture to grinding, shaping, finishing etc making it well nigh impossible to pinpoint some makers. Even with the relatively clear initials on my blade tang an ID was not possible. My apologies if I've only served to put more wet leaves on the fire.
Regards,
Norman.

Jim McDougall · 28th July 2010, 06:31 AM

Hey Mark! I knew this would getcha....I hope you can find that marking...Ive exhausted every source I can think of! but I know things maritime are right up your alley ye scalawag!!!

Norman, Excellent post!! and we've really missed you around here...believe me....these kind of posts with information and substantiation are great......no more 'wet leaves' business......this is outstanding info.

These 'corrugated' ribbed hilts really seem to have gotten wide use, and it seems there was a lot of confusion about customs swords, hospital swords and the elusive mountain artillery gunners swords.

Thanks a lot you guys, maybe we can find something this time

All the best,
Jim

Dmitry · 28th July 2010, 07:26 PM

Is it possible to have a more up-close photo of the boat trade-mark?

M ELEY · 1st August 2010, 08:23 AM

Still no luck finding that item I spoke of. It was an auction page from several years ago and I can't even remember the company name. Stumbled on it quite by accident. Still looking. Nothing in the standard naval sources...Rankin, Gilkerson, Annis, May, etc.

Jim McDougall · 1st August 2010, 11:48 PM

Thank you for trying Mark, it seems like this came up when we last discussed this sword some time ago. Its one of those marks that instantly prompts the old 'I know Ive seen that somewhere' dilemma

Dmitry, Im sorry but these images were from BJ's post, and I dont have access to the sword.

25th July 2010, 09:13 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	West India Company Cutlass: What is this Marking? Hi, my name is Jim and I am a weapons research addict Here is one from a couple of years ago, BBJW posted it and proved to be an intriguing item, but as with many, left unresolved. We now know that the WIDC markings stand for West India Dock Company, and #38 a rack or issue number. It appears to be one of the private type purchases of these brass hilt, ribbed iron grip cutlasses which were used in the early years of the 19th century, and seem to have subtle variation. Some seem to have been used by the Customs Dept. At issue here is the fascinating marking, an extremely stylized boat, with the mast and spar a deliberately significant cross. As has been discussed at times through the years, certain elements were often used in merchants marks, which were used in early trade ventures to mark thier merchandise and materials, the cross sometimes being one of them. In searching through references for use of a boat in early makers marks, I found one, not quite as stylized in the boat image, but with the initial M above it. This was believed to the maker Gemlich in Munich c. 1540. Obviously this mark does not signal it being a 16th century blade, but notes the interesting precedent, which has remote potential for suggestion associated in the style of this marking. I'd like to renew the search for the origin and significance of this marking. It is of course not likely a makers mark, but perhaps a symbol for marking the property of WIDC? Anyone out there ever seen similar marks or know anything of this company? Would really appreciate input........ahoy Mark, and BJ if you're out there!! All the best, Jim Attached Images

27th July 2010, 05:21 PM	#5
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi, I do like a good cutlass!! Many years ago I wrote to the Royal Armouries enclosing a photograph, some of you might remember the inky stick thing and the funny paper with an image on it from those days , requesting some information on this cutlass blade. Here is part of the reply, " From other parts of this article you will appreciate that precise identification of this type of blade is quite difficult. I enclose a photocopied page from P G W Annis', Naval Swords 1970 (p.61). This shows a similar blade but with a 'brass stirrup hilt' (it shows a corrugated iron hilt also). In fact we have a large number of these swords with 'various' types of blades. We believe they were originally issued to the 'Coastguard' but by 1865 had been fitted with more nearly straight cut-down cavalry sword blades and issued to the Army Hospital Corps." The tip of the cutlass that Jim posted I think points to a date somewhere in the second or third quarter of the 19thC. From the rest of this correspondence from the Royal Armouries it would appear that many blades of this type were 'outsourced' to innumerable small artisans for anything from complete blade manufacture to grinding, shaping, finishing etc making it well nigh impossible to pinpoint some makers. Even with the relatively clear initials on my blade tang an ID was not possible. My apologies if I've only served to put more wet leaves on the fire. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

26th July 2010, 04:17 PM	#2
Anandalal N. Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 84	Hi Jim, Welcome to the forum. Do you have better images of the marking. I see that it has the initials F and H which seem to be etter executed than the boat itself. Looking for the letter style may give an idea of the date; ot at least a - not older than ... - date.

26th July 2010, 04:48 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hi Anandalal, Thank you responding, and actually these are the only images I have from BBJWs earlier post, I am hoping if he is still out there somewhere he'll see this. Very good suggestion on the lettering....if I recall we had thought perhaps the letters might have been Friedrich (?) Holler of Solingen, but could not find evidence that that firm had ever used the boat theme. At that point we moved toward the merchant mark idea, as these markings in earlier times had often used religious/talismanic ideographs that used the numeral four atop a symbolic, or sometimes a cross, cf. the cross and orb, and these with initials of individual or firm for the merchant. These were in a way the forerunners of trademarks. I am hoping that in the literal sea of readers out there, somebody might recognize this boat marking! In the meantime, good observations on the lettering!!! and thank you again. All the very best, JIm

27th July 2010, 07:33 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Wow, Jim! A nice corrigated iron hilt cutlass...you have my attention! I have seen this mark before in a very strange context. A few years back, I saw an axe that was listed as a boarding axe despite it not having the typical spike of an attack battle axe. It looked more like a lathing hammer/axe, but did have some provenance as coming from a British naval yard that built ships. It dated to around 1850, I imagine. It had this marking, I am sure, but perhaps slightly different. I'll try and find that long-ago link. I must say that I have not seen this marking since. Not much info, I know, but fascinating none-the-same. Much like the WIDC marking that has quasi-naval provenance, it could definately go along with the customs connection you mention, Jim or perhaps coast-guard??

28th July 2010, 06:31 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Hey Mark! I knew this would getcha....I hope you can find that marking...Ive exhausted every source I can think of! but I know things maritime are right up your alley ye scalawag!!! Norman, Excellent post!! and we've really missed you around here...believe me....these kind of posts with information and substantiation are great......no more 'wet leaves' business......this is outstanding info. These 'corrugated' ribbed hilts really seem to have gotten wide use, and it seems there was a lot of confusion about customs swords, hospital swords and the elusive mountain artillery gunners swords. Thanks a lot you guys, maybe we can find something this time All the best, Jim

28th July 2010, 07:26 PM	#7
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Is it possible to have a more up-close photo of the boat trade-mark?

1st August 2010, 08:23 AM	#8
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,097	Still no luck finding that item I spoke of. It was an auction page from several years ago and I can't even remember the company name. Stumbled on it quite by accident. Still looking. Nothing in the standard naval sources...Rankin, Gilkerson, Annis, May, etc.

1st August 2010, 11:48 PM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Thank you for trying Mark, it seems like this came up when we last discussed this sword some time ago. Its one of those marks that instantly prompts the old 'I know Ive seen that somewhere' dilemma Dmitry, Im sorry but these images were from BJ's post, and I dont have access to the sword.