Machete ? Agricultural tool ?

thomas hauschild · 4th November 2020, 04:05 PM

Don‘t know what this (20€)-find could be. 64 cm length, very thin (2 mm) and flexible blade.
-The back of the blade is nearly sharp with a convex shape. Maybe to swing forwards and backwards ?
- A tang that I never saw before. ( grip is loose and only fragments left)
- a forging mark
- raffinated steel, more hardened at the front ( black etch)

Any comments welcome and Admins feel free to move the post.

Best Thomas

RSWORD · 4th November 2020, 07:29 PM

Could this be an example of the proverbial "sword beaten into plowshare"?

DhaDha · 4th November 2020, 09:02 PM

The blade reminds me of a SE Asian Mak.

David R · 4th November 2020, 11:54 PM

The thing to remember is that in some cultures at some points in time, every blade is made from a nice (to us) laminated steel/iron whatever the status of the item. That's just how a blade was made.
And worth admiration for the skill and natural beauty involved anyway.

Battara · 5th November 2020, 01:51 AM

I agree with David due to the fact that some areas that don't have a lot of quality steel.

Peter Dekker · 5th November 2020, 02:13 PM

Interesting piece!

While I agree that laminated steel is seen on pretty much all pre-industrially made Asian edged tools, from chisels to scissors to knives and swords of all types and all qualities.. what we see here is a rather deliberate effect. Especially the combination of straight lines in the middle and wavy lines near the edge is something that doesn't generally appear without some very intentional effort put into it.

It reminds strongly of the horse tooth patterned swords made among others in Yunnan. To get that wavy effect near the edge, the smith forges the edge a little thicker than necessary and then bends sections of the edge up and down. He then grinds the edge flat again, so what you get is that you look deeper into the layers at each wave. (If this method is used, then each wave on one side should be in the middle of two on the other.)

The effect on the Chinese swords I know of is a little more outspoken and neater, but due to the structure of the steel these effects water down somewhat after repeated sharpening, as the effects get less pronounced closer to the core of the piece. That might be what we are seeing here.

I add some photos of a pretty little duandao I used to own that was made like this. It is also seen on a North Vietnamese sword of the late 17th century that was once owned by Czar Peter the Great, now held in the Hermitage in St. Petersburg.

kronckew · 7th November 2020, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DhaDha

The blade reminds me of a SE Asian Mak.

Me too! Especially the 'weaponised' ones...
See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6204

My more mundain villager Mak:

Philip · 7th November 2020, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Dekker

Interesting piece!

While I agree that laminated steel is seen on pretty much all pre-industrially made Asian edged tools, from chisels to scissors to knives and swords of all types and all qualities.. what we see here is a rather deliberate effect..

So true, and remarkable considering the twist-core pattern welding on many keris blades of the southern Philippines is similar to that on some Anglo-Saxon and Viking swords.

Collectors often forget that that lamellar forging has been a hallmark of European blade craft for much longer than the so called "Dark Ages" and has even persisted after the start of the Industrial Era (for quality cutlery). Take a look at this, from Alan Williams' The Sword and the Crucible: A History of the Metallurgy of European Swords up to the 16th Cent. -- the caption introduces us to the what and how, and in the rest of the book he explains the why

Philip · 7th November 2020, 07:08 PM

Here is another excerpt from Williams' book ( p 238 ) showing photomicrographs of a section sawn from a (heavily corroded and damaged) European rapier blade, 16th-17th cent. The layering is very fine and well-controlled, especially considering that the operations were performed with water-powered triphammers, finishing with hand hammering on anvils. It's quite ludicrous hearing the gun show and auction pundits go on and on about how only the Japanese managed to master this, and that early European swords were just hammered out of single pieces of steel.

4th November 2020, 04:05 PM	#1
thomas hauschild Member Join Date: May 2017 Location: Germany Posts: 139	Machete ? Agricultural tool ? Don‘t know what this (20€)-find could be. 64 cm length, very thin (2 mm) and flexible blade. -The back of the blade is nearly sharp with a convex shape. Maybe to swing forwards and backwards ? - A tang that I never saw before. ( grip is loose and only fragments left) - a forging mark - raffinated steel, more hardened at the front ( black etch) Any comments welcome and Admins feel free to move the post. Best Thomas Attached Images

5th November 2020, 02:13 PM	#6
Peter Dekker Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Kingdom of the Netherlands Posts: 63	Interesting piece! While I agree that laminated steel is seen on pretty much all pre-industrially made Asian edged tools, from chisels to scissors to knives and swords of all types and all qualities.. what we see here is a rather deliberate effect. Especially the combination of straight lines in the middle and wavy lines near the edge is something that doesn't generally appear without some very intentional effort put into it. It reminds strongly of the horse tooth patterned swords made among others in Yunnan. To get that wavy effect near the edge, the smith forges the edge a little thicker than necessary and then bends sections of the edge up and down. He then grinds the edge flat again, so what you get is that you look deeper into the layers at each wave. (If this method is used, then each wave on one side should be in the middle of two on the other.) The effect on the Chinese swords I know of is a little more outspoken and neater, but due to the structure of the steel these effects water down somewhat after repeated sharpening, as the effects get less pronounced closer to the core of the piece. That might be what we are seeing here. I add some photos of a pretty little duandao I used to own that was made like this. It is also seen on a North Vietnamese sword of the late 17th century that was once owned by Czar Peter the Great, now held in the Hermitage in St. Petersburg. Attached Images

7th November 2020, 07:08 PM	#9
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	an earlier example of the technique Here is another excerpt from Williams' book ( p 238 ) showing photomicrographs of a section sawn from a (heavily corroded and damaged) European rapier blade, 16th-17th cent. The layering is very fine and well-controlled, especially considering that the operations were performed with water-powered triphammers, finishing with hand hammering on anvils. It's quite ludicrous hearing the gun show and auction pundits go on and on about how only the Japanese managed to master this, and that early European swords were just hammered out of single pieces of steel. Attached Images

4th November 2020, 07:29 PM	#2
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,083	Could this be an example of the proverbial "sword beaten into plowshare"?

4th November 2020, 09:02 PM	#3
DhaDha Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 165	The blade reminds me of a SE Asian Mak.

4th November 2020, 11:54 PM	#4
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	The thing to remember is that in some cultures at some points in time, every blade is made from a nice (to us) laminated steel/iron whatever the status of the item. That's just how a blade was made. And worth admiration for the skill and natural beauty involved anyway.

5th November 2020, 01:51 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I agree with David due to the fact that some areas that don't have a lot of quality steel.