Asian execution sword

Spearcollector · 29th July 2009, 04:55 PM

Hello,
In a small collection that I bought yesterday there was a strange sword, the owner tought it was a execution sword from china, its a very old one but he didn't know the exact age.
There are 3 circels with a star in copper in the blade, very nice.
Can someone tell me more about this sword.

p.s. And thanks to all, to visit our new website www.spearcollector.com about african old weapons. its a start and will grow every month with new items.
Regards
Jos

Jim McDougall · 29th July 2009, 05:28 PM

Hi Jos,
This attractive piece is actually a Chinese dadao which appears to have been remounted in the 19th century, much as many of these were. The blade does appear to have good age to it, and Im unclear on the copper inlaid markings which seem very unusual on these. The gold colored mounts are also extremely atypical for these, which usually had simple iron mounts, and I have never seen one of the ring pommels with this unusual shape.

It is a common western perception to term most of these heavy bladed Chinese swords 'execution swords' which became an almost cliche' during colonial activity there on the latter 19th and into early 20th century. These swords, with the heavy 'oxtail' type blades were used exclusively by civilian martial artists, and dramatic demonstrations by these martial artists, especially during the "Boxer Rebellion" of 1900 lent more to these perceptions.

It would be great to see some close ups of the blade, and know more on these copper (?) inlays, where they are positioned. This old blade seems quite deliberately decorated and perhaps was refurbished in this manner for some votive or ceremonial purpose. As always I look forward to comments from those more experienced with Chinese weapons.

Also Jos, I'd like to welcome you to our forums, and I'm really glad you joined us. Your website is extremely impressive! Very nicely done. I'm sure you will enjoy discussions with a number of the members here who extremely interested in African weapons as well. It is always great to add to the fantastic core of knowledge we have enjoyed here in discussing these intriguing weapons.

We presently have a thread going on some mysterious markings on a kaskara, which is developing into a more in depth look into the markings found on the blades of these Sudanese swords. I would really appreciate your input, and if you might add your insight by sharing examples you may have encountered.

All best regards,
Jim

Atlantia · 29th July 2009, 05:37 PM

Hi Jos,
Welcome to the forums and thanks for sharing this fantastic piece!

Jim,
Excellent observations on these interesting weapons, you've already answered several questions I was pondering.
I can see this gearing up to be a very interesting thread.
Regards
Gene

Spearcollector · 29th July 2009, 05:50 PM

Hi Jim,

Thanks for you fast reply.
Here I have some more pictures of the copper inlay, there are on bouth sides.
The iron on the handle is, I think painted in gold collor.
We will see later on other reactions.

May this is more intresting, this was also one of the knifes I found yesterday

The last picture, its also in the new book of Jan Elsen, its a Ngbandi knife

Kind regards
Jos

Jim McDougall · 29th July 2009, 06:42 PM

Gene, thank you! I agree, definitely gearing up nicely, and I hope we get some input on these inlays. Its been a while since we discussed these ring pommel Chinese dadao, and I'd really like to get some more detailed review on them.

Jos, thank you for the closeups, and the positioning of these at either end of channels recalls similar use of gold metal filled discs seen on certain sword blades in Transcaucasian regions (Black Sea knives/ Laz bichagi) and I believe on Central Asian as well. I believe it may possibly be a Persian affectation but cannot recall offhand. Also, it seems that copper or gold colored inlay is something often found on blades, actually from very early times. On Chinese swords, the first thing that comes to mind is the celestially arranged copper dots in 'seven stars' arrangement for the constellation.
Obviously these inlays do not correspond to that symbolism, but just mentioned to note the general practice.
Hopefully others might recognize the 'star shape' inlay and have seen other blades with these filled inlays between fullers or channels.

Interesting knife of Ngbandi, do you have more details" Are those dots at blade center as well? Could you note the details on the book you have mentioned also. I always appreciate knowing details of references cited so that we might seek that reference for our own libraries and its always good to have that information for rechecking.

All best regards,
Jim

Atlantia · 29th July 2009, 07:15 PM

Could we get some dimensions and weight for the Dadao please Jos?

Spearcollector · 29th July 2009, 07:22 PM

Hi,

The dimensions and weight for the Dadao are:
total lengt 110 cm the blade self is 84 cm
and the weight is 1,300 kg.

Kind regards.
Jos

KuKulzA28 · 29th July 2009, 10:05 PM

I find the ox-tail type blade interesting as the stereotypical Da-dao has the more rectangular looking tip.

Atlantia · 30th July 2009, 02:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spearcollector

Hi,

The dimensions and weight for the Dadao are:
total lengt 110 cm the blade self is 84 cm
and the weight is 1,300 kg.

Kind regards.
Jos

Hi Jos,

reason I asked about the weight/size is that I wanted to compare the scale with a Dao I have:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=chinese

Mines a rough old thing in need of a rebuild.
It weighs just under 1.5kg, total length: 92cm, blade length 75cm.

Regards
gene

Atlantia · 30th July 2009, 10:07 PM

Hi again Jos,
Not just 'bumping' your thread

I think I should ahev been clearer in my last post.
These heavy swords are often seen marked 'executioners sword' by dealers. I've often wondered (and Jim has kindly shone some light on this) If they were indeed for beheading or actually a two handed (hand and a half) fighting sword.
My big old Dao is really heavy and the centre of gravity is about 25cm down from the guard so really far forwards. A definate 'swinging' sword.

Its difficult to find film of large heavy dao's or Dadao's being used. Have a look at this youtube clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8ETMj8n6CM

Regards
Gene

Klas Larsson · 31st July 2009, 01:39 AM

Hi Jos,
I wonder is this a false back edge or is it sharp? It looks like it sharp, and in that case its probably a type of dao has been mentioned in other forums as typical for Muslim minorities in northern China. The way it turns a little more up towards the tip instead of being more aligned with the handle for stabbing, is also pointing in this direction. So maybe not such a typical Niuwei dao / Oxtail dao type of blade?
Regards,
Klas

Spearcollector · 1st August 2009, 01:57 PM

Thanks everyone for the help to search information about the asian sword.
But I search for myself a little and I think the blade is the same type as a
"Ba Gua Dao" you can find it on the web. the blade has the same form but not the handle, this one is mutch older than all what you find on the web.
And thanks again for visiting our website, www.spearcollector.com
We collect African old weapons, shields and other tribal objects.

Gavin Nugent · 1st August 2009, 04:25 PM

Thank you for sharing Jos.

Lots of interesting research still to be done on this piece, in particular the Coin motif in the blades. Here is a pair of knives I have in my collection of Chinese weapons http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s064_full.html
They share the same coin inlay, though mine show it in the blade and the hilt.
Whilst Klas notes yours as maybe being north China I ask, would a Muslim minority display Taoist symbols??? The knives I show are most definately south China in origins though who really knows with trade and such, mine could have been fashioned in the north under direction of someone who came from the south or yours could have been made in the south under direction of someone from the north, such if the global village of old as it is today.
I would love to see other examples of this type of dao and or the coin inlay in blades or hilts.
Show em if you got em good peoples.

Gav

Jim McDougall · 1st August 2009, 07:58 PM

The more I have looked into this intriguing sabre, it seems that more very deep history appear involved with it. The distinct widening of the blade into what became the 'oxtail' in China does of course recall these blades in the yelmaned blades seen on certain Islamic swords, but actually does not signify Muslim association here. The Muslim minorities and influences I typically consider in China are usually situated to the west in China's frontiers in those regions, and it does seem that certain hybrid weapon forms do occur in such cases. This sword is in my opinion, of the type of ring pommel dadao that is profoundly important in the history of China, especially in the case of the Ba Gua (Eight Trigrams) examples, which correspond directly to this type.

These are associated with Northern China, and often with the followers of Taoism as well as the secret societies who sought to restore the Ming rule. In 1813, a significant event took place which is not well known in history outside focused study on China, the "Eight Trigrams" or "Millenarian" rebellion. This is also termed the 'Ba Gua rebellion'.
I am looking for photos I have of one of these swords, from research about 13 years ago, which has the Ba Gua symbol (yin and yang surrounded by the trigrams) as well as incriptions claiming it was from the time of Wanli (Ming emperor 1572-1620). It is claimed that this sword is from the time of this rebellion, due to the distinct symbolism engraved on the blade. It is this form of ring pommel, and though I was hesitant to believe the blade was actually as early as Wanli, authorities assured me that very early period would not be unusual for these shaped blades.

Another insciption said to be the name of the sword inscribed in Chinese characters on the blade uses the phrase 'kill demons'.

It is important to note here that the reference to Wanli may only be in the form of patriotic recalling of the Ming emperor, however the 'kill demons' phrase is significant.

The interesting shape of the ring pommel on the example we are discussing I have discovered appears to be the gourd. While these in Chinese symbolism associate this with longevity, it also expressly addresses the exorcism and expelling of evil spirits. The inlaid discs on the blade, as noted by Gav, are also Daoist/Taoist symbols.

Taoism is of course a philosophical and religious tradition which is, much as many beliefs, followed in many cases somewhat syncretically with other religions, and its symbolism both materially and temporally extremely complex.
The use of the sword in dispelling evil spirits is well established in Taoist ritual, which seems of course very much like the Buddhist rituals involving the 'phurbu' in Tibet. There are weapons in China known as ghost swords or daggers I believe in much the same parlance.

Here we have a beautiful example of a Chinese dadao, unique decorative motif carrying distinct Taoist symbolism, and a style of blade which appears quite early, possibly 17th century, and apparantly intended for use associated with symbolic rituals.

A fascinating run, and exciting history!!! Thanks very much for sharing this!

All best regards,
Jim

Maskell · 5th August 2009, 02:44 AM

Greetings,

Finally have high speed Internet so my first attempt to post pictures. When I looked at this thread last week that pommel was familiar. I have about 300 old Chinese swords and went through one of the piles today and found one. I assume the sword is 19th. century but unfortunately the blade is broken and missing the portion just forward of the kelij type step up on the spine.

The 2 damascus blades below have the copper star inlayed very much like the one in this thread however both of these are brand new swords, I did see an old Chinese short sword or long knife about a month ago that had a copper star inlay but it had a suspicious look that it had been added recently. I'm not suggesting that the sword in this thread had the inlay added, I don't know but I think interesting discussion.

All the Best,
Maskell
Jerry

Maskell · 5th August 2009, 06:09 PM

OOOOPS... found another one with this style pommel in my keeper pile, the reason it was there is that it has an inscription on the blade. I tried to take a picture of the kanji and also tried to scan a rubbing but just not clear enough so I did a drawing of it. Can anyone read it or give its meaning?

Thanks in advance if anyone can.

Best,
Maskell
Jerry

fearn · 5th August 2009, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spearcollector

Thanks everyone for the help to search information about the asian sword.
But I search for myself a little and I think the blade is the same type as a
"Ba Gua Dao" you can find it on the web. the blade has the same form but not the handle, this one is mutch older than all what you find on the web.
And thanks again for visiting our website, www.spearcollector.com
We collect African old weapons, shields and other tribal objects.

Hi Spearcollector,

It could be a "bagua dao," but I think there's a more likely possibility.

The bagua dao is best known from the baguazhang martial art, because one of the early masters used a dao that was twice the size of a normal dao.

That's all a bagua dao is. So far as I know (and I studied baguazhang for some time), the bagua dao originated in the Imperial palace, where some of the bagua masters trained the palace guard. Basically, there's a tradition in China that the higher up you are in the military, the bigger the blade that you wield, and so the imperial guard used the oversized, "Bagua" dao as a weapon. The size, rather than the shape, is the big thing about what makes a dao a "bagua" dao. That and modern marketing. I never saw these oversized swords marketed as baguadao in the US until after 2000, but that might be my ignorance showing.

However, based on the s guard and ring, I'd say that this is more likely a normal oxtail dao that was remounted for taiji practice.

I borrowed this image from http://www.ycgf.org/Articles/TJ_Dao/Taiji_Dao-1.html. Basically, a proper taiji dao also has a different blade than an oxtdail dao. However, I can easily see someone mounting an available blade on an approximately taiji-style hilt to make something to practice with, and I think that's what you've got here. The size of your blade is proper for a taiji dao to, as far as I know.

Best,

F

Maskell · 8th August 2009, 08:26 PM

Gentleman,

I found one in the pile today that has the coin/star inlays and apparently original to it, there were 3 inlays but one has falling out, this one seems similar to the one Spearcollector posted. The one I had seen last month that I suspected had been cleaned in the area of the inlay and their placement odd making the design look unbalanced. Any thoughts on this one?

Best,
Jerry
Maskell.

29th July 2009, 04:55 PM	#1
Spearcollector Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 11	Asian execution sword Hello, In a small collection that I bought yesterday there was a strange sword, the owner tought it was a execution sword from china, its a very old one but he didn't know the exact age. There are 3 circels with a star in copper in the blade, very nice. Can someone tell me more about this sword. p.s. And thanks to all, to visit our new website www.spearcollector.com about african old weapons. its a start and will grow every month with new items. Regards Jos Attached Images

29th July 2009, 05:50 PM	#4
Spearcollector Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 11	asian execution sword Hi Jim, Thanks for you fast reply. Here I have some more pictures of the copper inlay, there are on bouth sides. The iron on the handle is, I think painted in gold collor. We will see later on other reactions. May this is more intresting, this was also one of the knifes I found yesterday The last picture, its also in the new book of Jan Elsen, its a Ngbandi knife Kind regards Jos Attached Images

29th July 2009, 07:22 PM	#7
Spearcollector Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 11	asian execution sword Hi, The dimensions and weight for the Dadao are: total lengt 110 cm the blade self is 84 cm and the weight is 1,300 kg. Kind regards. Jos

1st August 2009, 01:57 PM	#12
Spearcollector Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 11	Hello Thanks everyone for the help to search information about the asian sword. But I search for myself a little and I think the blade is the same type as a "Ba Gua Dao" you can find it on the web. the blade has the same form but not the handle, this one is mutch older than all what you find on the web. And thanks again for visiting our website, www.spearcollector.com We collect African old weapons, shields and other tribal objects.

1st August 2009, 04:25 PM	#13
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Dao Thank you for sharing Jos. Lots of interesting research still to be done on this piece, in particular the Coin motif in the blades. Here is a pair of knives I have in my collection of Chinese weapons http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/s064_full.html They share the same coin inlay, though mine show it in the blade and the hilt. Whilst Klas notes yours as maybe being north China I ask, would a Muslim minority display Taoist symbols??? The knives I show are most definately south China in origins though who really knows with trade and such, mine could have been fashioned in the north under direction of someone who came from the south or yours could have been made in the south under direction of someone from the north, such if the global village of old as it is today. I would love to see other examples of this type of dao and or the coin inlay in blades or hilts. Show em if you got em good peoples. Gav

29th July 2009, 05:28 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,952	Hi Jos, This attractive piece is actually a Chinese dadao which appears to have been remounted in the 19th century, much as many of these were. The blade does appear to have good age to it, and Im unclear on the copper inlaid markings which seem very unusual on these. The gold colored mounts are also extremely atypical for these, which usually had simple iron mounts, and I have never seen one of the ring pommels with this unusual shape. It is a common western perception to term most of these heavy bladed Chinese swords 'execution swords' which became an almost cliche' during colonial activity there on the latter 19th and into early 20th century. These swords, with the heavy 'oxtail' type blades were used exclusively by civilian martial artists, and dramatic demonstrations by these martial artists, especially during the "Boxer Rebellion" of 1900 lent more to these perceptions. It would be great to see some close ups of the blade, and know more on these copper (?) inlays, where they are positioned. This old blade seems quite deliberately decorated and perhaps was refurbished in this manner for some votive or ceremonial purpose. As always I look forward to comments from those more experienced with Chinese weapons. Also Jos, I'd like to welcome you to our forums, and I'm really glad you joined us. Your website is extremely impressive! Very nicely done. I'm sure you will enjoy discussions with a number of the members here who extremely interested in African weapons as well. It is always great to add to the fantastic core of knowledge we have enjoyed here in discussing these intriguing weapons. We presently have a thread going on some mysterious markings on a kaskara, which is developing into a more in depth look into the markings found on the blades of these Sudanese swords. I would really appreciate your input, and if you might add your insight by sharing examples you may have encountered. All best regards, Jim

29th July 2009, 05:37 PM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Jos, Welcome to the forums and thanks for sharing this fantastic piece! Jim, Excellent observations on these interesting weapons, you've already answered several questions I was pondering. I can see this gearing up to be a very interesting thread. Regards Gene

29th July 2009, 06:42 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,952	Gene, thank you! I agree, definitely gearing up nicely, and I hope we get some input on these inlays. Its been a while since we discussed these ring pommel Chinese dadao, and I'd really like to get some more detailed review on them. Jos, thank you for the closeups, and the positioning of these at either end of channels recalls similar use of gold metal filled discs seen on certain sword blades in Transcaucasian regions (Black Sea knives/ Laz bichagi) and I believe on Central Asian as well. I believe it may possibly be a Persian affectation but cannot recall offhand. Also, it seems that copper or gold colored inlay is something often found on blades, actually from very early times. On Chinese swords, the first thing that comes to mind is the celestially arranged copper dots in 'seven stars' arrangement for the constellation. Obviously these inlays do not correspond to that symbolism, but just mentioned to note the general practice. Hopefully others might recognize the 'star shape' inlay and have seen other blades with these filled inlays between fullers or channels. Interesting knife of Ngbandi, do you have more details" Are those dots at blade center as well? Could you note the details on the book you have mentioned also. I always appreciate knowing details of references cited so that we might seek that reference for our own libraries and its always good to have that information for rechecking. All best regards, Jim

29th July 2009, 07:15 PM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Could we get some dimensions and weight for the Dadao please Jos?

29th July 2009, 10:05 PM	#8
KuKulzA28 Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: between work and sleep Posts: 731	I find the ox-tail type blade interesting as the stereotypical Da-dao has the more rectangular looking tip.

30th July 2009, 10:07 PM	#10
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi again Jos, Not just 'bumping' your thread I think I should ahev been clearer in my last post. These heavy swords are often seen marked 'executioners sword' by dealers. I've often wondered (and Jim has kindly shone some light on this) If they were indeed for beheading or actually a two handed (hand and a half) fighting sword. My big old Dao is really heavy and the centre of gravity is about 25cm down from the guard so really far forwards. A definate 'swinging' sword. Its difficult to find film of large heavy dao's or Dadao's being used. Have a look at this youtube clip. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8ETMj8n6CM Regards Gene

31st July 2009, 01:39 AM	#11
Klas Larsson Member Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 23	Hi Jos, I wonder is this a false back edge or is it sharp? It looks like it sharp, and in that case its probably a type of dao has been mentioned in other forums as typical for Muslim minorities in northern China. The way it turns a little more up towards the tip instead of being more aligned with the handle for stabbing, is also pointing in this direction. So maybe not such a typical Niuwei dao / Oxtail dao type of blade? Regards, Klas

1st August 2009, 07:58 PM	#14
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,952	The more I have looked into this intriguing sabre, it seems that more very deep history appear involved with it. The distinct widening of the blade into what became the 'oxtail' in China does of course recall these blades in the yelmaned blades seen on certain Islamic swords, but actually does not signify Muslim association here. The Muslim minorities and influences I typically consider in China are usually situated to the west in China's frontiers in those regions, and it does seem that certain hybrid weapon forms do occur in such cases. This sword is in my opinion, of the type of ring pommel dadao that is profoundly important in the history of China, especially in the case of the Ba Gua (Eight Trigrams) examples, which correspond directly to this type. These are associated with Northern China, and often with the followers of Taoism as well as the secret societies who sought to restore the Ming rule. In 1813, a significant event took place which is not well known in history outside focused study on China, the "Eight Trigrams" or "Millenarian" rebellion. This is also termed the 'Ba Gua rebellion'. I am looking for photos I have of one of these swords, from research about 13 years ago, which has the Ba Gua symbol (yin and yang surrounded by the trigrams) as well as incriptions claiming it was from the time of Wanli (Ming emperor 1572-1620). It is claimed that this sword is from the time of this rebellion, due to the distinct symbolism engraved on the blade. It is this form of ring pommel, and though I was hesitant to believe the blade was actually as early as Wanli, authorities assured me that very early period would not be unusual for these shaped blades. Another insciption said to be the name of the sword inscribed in Chinese characters on the blade uses the phrase 'kill demons'. It is important to note here that the reference to Wanli may only be in the form of patriotic recalling of the Ming emperor, however the 'kill demons' phrase is significant. The interesting shape of the ring pommel on the example we are discussing I have discovered appears to be the gourd. While these in Chinese symbolism associate this with longevity, it also expressly addresses the exorcism and expelling of evil spirits. The inlaid discs on the blade, as noted by Gav, are also Daoist/Taoist symbols. Taoism is of course a philosophical and religious tradition which is, much as many beliefs, followed in many cases somewhat syncretically with other religions, and its symbolism both materially and temporally extremely complex. The use of the sword in dispelling evil spirits is well established in Taoist ritual, which seems of course very much like the Buddhist rituals involving the 'phurbu' in Tibet. There are weapons in China known as ghost swords or daggers I believe in much the same parlance. Here we have a beautiful example of a Chinese dadao, unique decorative motif carrying distinct Taoist symbolism, and a style of blade which appears quite early, possibly 17th century, and apparantly intended for use associated with symbolic rituals. A fascinating run, and exciting history!!! Thanks very much for sharing this! All best regards, Jim Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 2nd August 2009 at 06:20 AM.

5th August 2009, 02:44 AM	#15
Maskell Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 38	Greetings, Finally have high speed Internet so my first attempt to post pictures. When I looked at this thread last week that pommel was familiar. I have about 300 old Chinese swords and went through one of the piles today and found one. I assume the sword is 19th. century but unfortunately the blade is broken and missing the portion just forward of the kelij type step up on the spine. The 2 damascus blades below have the copper star inlayed very much like the one in this thread however both of these are brand new swords, I did see an old Chinese short sword or long knife about a month ago that had a copper star inlay but it had a suspicious look that it had been added recently. I'm not suggesting that the sword in this thread had the inlay added, I don't know but I think interesting discussion. All the Best, Maskell Jerry Attached Images

5th August 2009, 06:09 PM	#16
Maskell Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 38	OOOOPS... found another one with this style pommel in my keeper pile, the reason it was there is that it has an inscription on the blade. I tried to take a picture of the kanji and also tried to scan a rubbing but just not clear enough so I did a drawing of it. Can anyone read it or give its meaning? Thanks in advance if anyone can. Best, Maskell Jerry Attached Images

8th August 2009, 08:26 PM	#18
Maskell Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 38	Gentleman, I found one in the pile today that has the coin/star inlays and apparently original to it, there were 3 inlays but one has falling out, this one seems similar to the one Spearcollector posted. The one I had seen last month that I suspected had been cleaned in the area of the inlay and their placement odd making the design look unbalanced. Any thoughts on this one? Best, Jerry Maskell. Attached Images