UNKNOWN DAGGER FOR ID.

VANDOO · 14th February 2012, 05:26 AM

HERE IS A UNUSUAL DAGGER FOR DISCUSSION. THE ONLY INFORMATION I HAVE ON IT IS IT IS FROM A COUNTRY IN THE MEDITERRANEAN AREA. IT MUST HAVE HAD SOME SPECIAL USE TO HAVE SUCH AN UNUSUAL FORM OF BLADE.

kahnjar1 · 14th February 2012, 06:03 AM

Is that a slot I see towards the blade tip? If so it could be some sort of sewing tool...maybe for sails?
Stu

David R · 14th February 2012, 07:12 PM

It looks very like the classic "Mediterranian Dirk" but with a stiletto point. Makes sense actualy, a knife edge for utility cutting and a stiletto point for combat. A real bespoke piece and very nice to have.

Stan S. · 15th February 2012, 12:26 AM

An eating utensil? The point can be used as a skewer (instead of a fork) and the cutting ege is for cutting... Just a guess

Atlantia · 15th February 2012, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Is that a slot I see towards the blade tip? If so it could be some sort of sewing tool...maybe for sails?
Stu

My first thought was the same mate.
A blade to cut the sail-cloth, an awl to make the holes and a hook to pull the yarn through.
Just a guess though.
It's certainly a good looking and quality item. I'd also agree mediterranean. Possibly naval rather than 'fisherman'.

Atlantia · 15th February 2012, 10:49 AM

Definately looks European though Barry. You could try the Euro forum?

fspic · 16th February 2012, 01:25 AM

The fluting (or whatever) suggests this is Italian (or maybe French) as they are the main ones who heavily used that sort of decoration - it is also found in furniture. It doth have a Baroque-ish smack to it. A distant variant is the spiral columns of the Vatican altar.

As for the application, if there is a hole in the end it would likely be used for pulling cord, but if not sails then maybe upholstery. If the blade is sharp or has a slightly chisel edge that may give a clue to use.

Indianajones · 16th February 2012, 04:35 PM

The handle looks like it is made of a cut section of twisted vine (tropical?) more than carved, is it? Is it wood at all?
To me it certainly looks like a specialised tool from around the 1830's, perhaps Italian or Spanish as does the iron decoration indicate.
It certainly belonged to a craftman specialised in a particular job, maybe on mainland or maybe on board of a ship (hence the tropical addition?).
>>>just my humble thoughts on this item<<

chregu · 16th February 2012, 07:32 PM

hello together
Europe for sure!
would tap Italy, but also could be Corsica, a possibility.
however, a beautiful piece!
gruss chregu

VANDOO · 17th February 2012, 07:05 AM

UNFORTUNATELY ALL I HAVE IS A PICTURE OF THIS KNIFE/TOOL. I SUSPECT THE GRIP IS EITHER CARVED EBONY OR HORN. THE SPOT ON THE BLADE APPEARS TO BE DISCOLORED NOT A HOLE FOR THREADING. NOTE THE GAURD ON ONE SIDE BY THE BLADE. IT IS THERE TO KEEP THE HAND FROM SLIDING DOWN ONTO THE BLADE. IT WOULD APPEAR THIS IS A COMBINATION TOOL FOR PERFORATING HOLES IN SOMETHING REQUIREING A FAIR AMOUNT OF FORCE. IT ALSO HAS THE BLADE FOR CUTTING. WORKING ON SAILS AND RIGGING IS A GOOD SUGGESTION.
THE ITEM IS WELL MADE AND THE WORKMANSHIP DOES REMIND ME OF FRENCH OR ITALIAN WORKMANSHIP. PERHAPS SOMEONE WILL SEE THIS IN THE FUTURE AND KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IT S AND FILL US IN. IN THE MEANTIME ITS FUN TO GUESS.

kronckew · 17th February 2012, 11:20 AM

my first thought was an artillery dagger/cannon vent prick. (bombardier's stiletto)

Rick · 17th February 2012, 05:11 PM

This piece is way too fancy to be a rigging knife of any kind, IMO .

It is not a Fid either .

Sailmaker's Palm below .

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 17th February 2012, 05:21 PM

Salaams all ~ My guess is Bull Fighters knife...

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

ps In Oman we have bull fighting... but in this case its between two bulls giving each other no more than a headache!!

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 9th April 2014, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

HERE IS A UNUSUAL DAGGER FOR DISCUSSION. THE ONLY INFORMATION I HAVE ON IT IS IT IS FROM A COUNTRY IN THE MEDITERRANEAN AREA. IT MUST HAVE HAD SOME SPECIAL USE TO HAVE SUCH AN UNUSUAL FORM OF BLADE.

Salaams VANDOO ~ I was researching something quite obscure (Genoese Naval Swords) and bumped into the Genoese Knife style you show at # 1. Please see www.sangiorgioaste.com

Solved !!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Tim Simmons · 9th April 2014, 03:07 PM

Looks like the skewer in a meat carving set.

kronckew · 9th April 2014, 03:20 PM

so, what is it?
(i can't read the illustrated page, ibrahim)
(also can't read italian

)

the perforated tip does lend itself to some sort of sailor's dagger also used for sail repair and/or fancy knotwork.

Emanuel · 9th April 2014, 04:09 PM

Hello,

This a Genovese knife "con passacorda", referring to the thin blade tip. It was supposedly indeed used for rigging and knots.

The slit in the blade, or sometimes in the tang when the handle unscrews from the blade, is known as the "cruna" and basically makes a larger threading needle.

That's a wonderful book by the way with excellent information, but in Italian. I will look up the specific info when I get home tonight.

Here is a page from "Dizionari Terminologici - Armi Bianche dal Mediebo all'Eta Moderna" (Florence, 1980) for additional reference. See F and G, terms, 10 and 26.

Emanuel

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 9th April 2014, 06:07 PM

I got a reasonable translation by pressing the little flag top right on the website reference but anyway this is not only an excellent matelots weapon/ rigging tool but became famous as a dastardly dagger up the back alleyways in Genoa on dark nights...and the book goes on to describe its reputation and prohibition as an illegal blade..I cant think why...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Emanuel · 9th April 2014, 06:22 PM

Yes, they do seem to be wonderful little trouble makers.

VANDOO · 9th April 2014, 06:38 PM

THIS IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THE FORUM BEING A GOOD POINT OF REFRENCE ONE NEVER KNOWS WHAT ONE MAY FIND IN OLD POSTS

. THE ANSWERS TO THIS QUESTION NOW COME TO LIGHT A LITTLE OVER 2 YEARS AND 2 MONTHS LATER.
FORUM MEMBERS GUESSES, VAGUE MEMORIES AND USE OF LOGIC CAME CLOSE IN SOME CASES BACK THEN BUT NOW WE HAVE SOLID REFRENCE AND INFORMATION AT LAST. SO POSTING A PICTURE OF A UNUSUAL ITEM THAT YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT CAN BRING ANSWERS HERE.

THANKS FOR THE ANSWER. IBRAHIIM

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 10th April 2014, 08:06 AM

Salaams ...
Great work Emanuel ...thanks VANDOO... All this is now preserved in library...all hard wired in ! Nice publication too.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Jim McDougall · 10th April 2014, 05:21 PM

Well done Ibrahiim!!!! You really nailed this one!!!!!
What outstanding research, thank you for entering this. While everybody had great observations, I couldn't fathom what in the world this was, and never seen one before.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 10th April 2014, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Well done Ibrahiim!!!! You really nailed this one!!!!!
What outstanding research, thank you for entering this. While everybody had great observations, I couldn't fathom what in the world this was, and never seen one before.

Thanks Jim, Pure chance as it happens as I was looking at Genoese links possibly tied to the Nimcha conundrum and it just appeared. VANDOO had placed such a clear picture it had stuck in my mind from a couple of years ago...I thought it was a bullfighters weapon..ha!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

spiral · 10th April 2014, 08:42 PM

A great thread! Good work! fascinating!

Spiral

Norman McCormick · 10th April 2014, 09:50 PM

Hi Ibrahiim,
Nicely done and well remembered. I'm sure there are more than a few Forum members, mostly of a certain age group

, who are rather envious of your capacity for recollection.

My Regards,
Norman.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th April 2014, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi Ibrahiim,
Nicely done and well remembered. I'm sure there are more than a few Forum members, mostly of a certain age group

, who are rather envious of your capacity for recollection.

My Regards,
Norman.

Salaams Norman... I've forgotten more stuff than I can remember ...where was I ?? er....

Pleasure to help...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Emanuel · 11th April 2014, 05:12 PM

Here are a few relevant pages from "Il Coltello Genovese" Most of the illustrated examples seem to date from the 17-18th centuries.

The text is basically descriptive. I can provide rough translations but I'm sure there are native Italian speakers on the forum that might help.

Emanuel

Emanuel · 11th April 2014, 05:13 PM

p2

Emanuel · 11th April 2014, 05:15 PM

p3

Emanuel · 11th April 2014, 05:16 PM

p4

14th February 2012, 05:26 AM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	UNKNOWN DAGGER FOR ID. HERE IS A UNUSUAL DAGGER FOR DISCUSSION. THE ONLY INFORMATION I HAVE ON IT IS IT IS FROM A COUNTRY IN THE MEDITERRANEAN AREA. IT MUST HAVE HAD SOME SPECIAL USE TO HAVE SUCH AN UNUSUAL FORM OF BLADE. Attached Images

17th February 2012, 05:11 PM	#12
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	This piece is way too fancy to be a rigging knife of any kind, IMO . It is not a Fid either . Sailmaker's Palm below . Attached Images

9th April 2014, 04:09 PM	#17
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, This a Genovese knife "con passacorda", referring to the thin blade tip. It was supposedly indeed used for rigging and knots. The slit in the blade, or sometimes in the tang when the handle unscrews from the blade, is known as the "cruna" and basically makes a larger threading needle. That's a wonderful book by the way with excellent information, but in Italian. I will look up the specific info when I get home tonight. Here is a page from "Dizionari Terminologici - Armi Bianche dal Mediebo all'Eta Moderna" (Florence, 1980) for additional reference. See F and G, terms, 10 and 26. Emanuel Attached Images Last edited by Emanuel; 9th April 2014 at 04:39 PM.

10th April 2014, 08:06 AM	#21
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Coltello Passacorda. Salaams ... Great work Emanuel ...thanks VANDOO... All this is now preserved in library...all hard wired in ! Nice publication too. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

11th April 2014, 05:12 PM	#27
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Here are a few relevant pages from "Il Coltello Genovese" Most of the illustrated examples seem to date from the 17-18th centuries. The text is basically descriptive. I can provide rough translations but I'm sure there are native Italian speakers on the forum that might help. Emanuel Attached Images

14th February 2012, 06:03 AM	#2
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,739	Is that a slot I see towards the blade tip? If so it could be some sort of sewing tool...maybe for sails? Stu

14th February 2012, 07:12 PM	#3
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	It looks very like the classic "Mediterranian Dirk" but with a stiletto point. Makes sense actualy, a knife edge for utility cutting and a stiletto point for combat. A real bespoke piece and very nice to have.

15th February 2012, 12:26 AM	#4
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	An eating utensil? The point can be used as a skewer (instead of a fork) and the cutting ege is for cutting... Just a guess

15th February 2012, 10:49 AM	#6
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Definately looks European though Barry. You could try the Euro forum?

16th February 2012, 01:25 AM	#7
fspic Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 27	The fluting (or whatever) suggests this is Italian (or maybe French) as they are the main ones who heavily used that sort of decoration - it is also found in furniture. It doth have a Baroque-ish smack to it. A distant variant is the spiral columns of the Vatican altar. As for the application, if there is a hole in the end it would likely be used for pulling cord, but if not sails then maybe upholstery. If the blade is sharp or has a slightly chisel edge that may give a clue to use.

16th February 2012, 04:35 PM	#8
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	The handle looks like it is made of a cut section of twisted vine (tropical?) more than carved, is it? Is it wood at all? To me it certainly looks like a specialised tool from around the 1830's, perhaps Italian or Spanish as does the iron decoration indicate. It certainly belonged to a craftman specialised in a particular job, maybe on mainland or maybe on board of a ship (hence the tropical addition?). >>>just my humble thoughts on this item<<

16th February 2012, 07:32 PM	#9
chregu Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: switzerland Posts: 298	hello together Europe for sure! would tap Italy, but also could be Corsica, a possibility. however, a beautiful piece! gruss chregu

17th February 2012, 07:05 AM	#10
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	UNFORTUNATELY ALL I HAVE IS A PICTURE OF THIS KNIFE/TOOL. I SUSPECT THE GRIP IS EITHER CARVED EBONY OR HORN. THE SPOT ON THE BLADE APPEARS TO BE DISCOLORED NOT A HOLE FOR THREADING. NOTE THE GAURD ON ONE SIDE BY THE BLADE. IT IS THERE TO KEEP THE HAND FROM SLIDING DOWN ONTO THE BLADE. IT WOULD APPEAR THIS IS A COMBINATION TOOL FOR PERFORATING HOLES IN SOMETHING REQUIREING A FAIR AMOUNT OF FORCE. IT ALSO HAS THE BLADE FOR CUTTING. WORKING ON SAILS AND RIGGING IS A GOOD SUGGESTION. THE ITEM IS WELL MADE AND THE WORKMANSHIP DOES REMIND ME OF FRENCH OR ITALIAN WORKMANSHIP. PERHAPS SOMEONE WILL SEE THIS IN THE FUTURE AND KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IT S AND FILL US IN. IN THE MEANTIME ITS FUN TO GUESS.

17th February 2012, 11:20 AM	#11
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	my first thought was an artillery dagger/cannon vent prick. (bombardier's stiletto)

17th February 2012, 05:21 PM	#13
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams all ~ My guess is Bull Fighters knife... Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi. ps In Oman we have bull fighting... but in this case its between two bulls giving each other no more than a headache!!

9th April 2014, 03:07 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	Looks like the skewer in a meat carving set.

9th April 2014, 03:20 PM	#16
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	so, what is it? (i can't read the illustrated page, ibrahim) (also can't read italian ) the perforated tip does lend itself to some sort of sailor's dagger also used for sail repair and/or fancy knotwork.

9th April 2014, 06:07 PM	#18
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	I got a reasonable translation by pressing the little flag top right on the website reference but anyway this is not only an excellent matelots weapon/ rigging tool but became famous as a dastardly dagger up the back alleyways in Genoa on dark nights...and the book goes on to describe its reputation and prohibition as an illegal blade..I cant think why... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

9th April 2014, 06:22 PM	#19
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Yes, they do seem to be wonderful little trouble makers.

9th April 2014, 06:38 PM	#20
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THIS IS A GOOD EXAMPLE OF THE FORUM BEING A GOOD POINT OF REFRENCE ONE NEVER KNOWS WHAT ONE MAY FIND IN OLD POSTS . THE ANSWERS TO THIS QUESTION NOW COME TO LIGHT A LITTLE OVER 2 YEARS AND 2 MONTHS LATER. FORUM MEMBERS GUESSES, VAGUE MEMORIES AND USE OF LOGIC CAME CLOSE IN SOME CASES BACK THEN BUT NOW WE HAVE SOLID REFRENCE AND INFORMATION AT LAST. SO POSTING A PICTURE OF A UNUSUAL ITEM THAT YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT CAN BRING ANSWERS HERE. THANKS FOR THE ANSWER. IBRAHIIM

10th April 2014, 05:21 PM	#22
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Well done Ibrahiim!!!! You really nailed this one!!!!! What outstanding research, thank you for entering this. While everybody had great observations, I couldn't fathom what in the world this was, and never seen one before.

10th April 2014, 08:42 PM	#24
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	A great thread! Good work! fascinating! Spiral

10th April 2014, 09:50 PM	#25
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi Ibrahiim, Nicely done and well remembered. I'm sure there are more than a few Forum members, mostly of a certain age group , who are rather envious of your capacity for recollection. My Regards, Norman.

11th April 2014, 05:13 PM	#28
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	p2 Attached Images

11th April 2014, 05:15 PM	#29
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	p3 Attached Images

11th April 2014, 05:16 PM	#30
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	p4 Attached Images