Question about a Dha

kino · 8th March 2011, 02:50 AM

I picked up this "Asian Sword", (sellers description), over the weekend at an antique show. I searched Mark Bowditch's D.R.A. ,for a similar looking example, found similar type of pommels but with different shaped blade and almost same type blade with diffferent hilts.
Is this a Shan dha? it has these engravings on the blade that one might find on a tourist piece. I believe this one is fairly old judging by the patina on the copper hilt. Anyone want to take a stab at the age?
Thanks in advance.

Nathaniel · 8th March 2011, 03:17 AM

Kino

Interesting piece. The makers mark on the blade is a new one I have not seen before! You should add this one to the thread on dha/ daab makers marks!

I'll let Mark, Andrew or someone else speak of the type. I'm not sure. Interesting though that the hilt is copper? Not something you see all that often. Maybe just the patina as there are several alloys in SEA. Thanks for sharing!

Great find!

Gavin Nugent · 8th March 2011, 03:18 AM

A beautiful piece, congrats Kino. I like the blade very much.
Whilst the hilt may appear copper to you, I think you will find it is tarnished silver. I have several Dha that were of this hue and they are silver. it appears many silvers from these regions go this colour, I am guessing something to do with the smelting process of the alloys and the inpurities they mix with the base metal.

Congrats again.

Gav

Nathaniel · 8th March 2011, 06:22 AM

The decoration on the blade reminds me of these two pieces:

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3789

http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3776

kino · 8th March 2011, 05:21 PM

Thanks guys.
Tarnished silver alloy... Well when I get home this evening I will
have to pay close attention to the material. Maybe polish a small
section.
Thanks for the link showing similar decorations.

Andrew · 9th March 2011, 08:10 PM

Nice sword. Thai, probably early 20th c., in my opinion.

I do not necessarily disagree with Gav that the handle material may well be a silver alloy. However, I'd lean more towards some other alloy--perhaps a type of brass (copper/zinc).

Andrew

Battara · 9th March 2011, 08:18 PM

According to the patina I see, I would say brass or, more likely, copper.

Gavin Nugent · 9th March 2011, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

According to the patina I see, I would say brass or, more likely, copper.

Copper patina;

Here is an example of Thai silver showing a copper patina. These are the hilts of the large Namphee steel swords or unusual form.
Note the one of the left is still in the original patina, the one on the right was the same but now cleaned.

Good luck.

Gav

Andrew · 9th March 2011, 10:15 PM

Different alloys will patina differently, Gav.

Battara · 10th March 2011, 12:44 AM

Right Andrew - on the money!

I can tell that if the middle one has silver, it is a very low silver, but I would say most likely it is brass.

The one on the left is low silver (if any silver) or perhaps nickel silver (no silver content) with perhaps a low silver pommel.

The one on the right seems to have silver content.

Again: different alloys = different patinas.

Andrew · 10th March 2011, 01:01 AM

Jose, the right and left handles shown by Gav are a matched set--the right one has been cleaned.

I see what he is talking about--the patina on the left example sure does have a "coppery" tone.

Again, it's going to be quite hard to definitively determine the metal just from the patina (not to mention the fact we're all only looking a pictures on a computer monitor).

However, having said that (and having handled hundreds of examples from the region) I would say that the patina in the original example looks more like a brass alloy than a silver alloy.

Gavin Nugent · 10th March 2011, 07:45 AM

Another view...just never got around to finishing the job.

Gav

Andrew · 10th March 2011, 07:36 PM

Gav, does the handle of the cleaned sword look like the silver has some color to it? I wonder if that might not be a silver/copper alloy, which would account for the reddish-brown color of the patina.

I have some silver Thai swords of similar design where the silver patina turned a really nice, rich, lustrous midnight blue. A smalll polished area looked purely silver, but there is clearly an alloy metal there that caused a rather atypical patina color.

BTW, those two swords must be very troubling for you to keep track of--let me know if you want me to hold them for you.

Battara · 11th March 2011, 02:39 AM

Well most silver is an alloy of some copper. However, if there is a slight reddish hue, then there may be more copper in it making it a lower silver content.

Good point on the patina - tarnish may turn brown on silver, especially the more copper it has.

Gavin Nugent · 11th March 2011, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Gav, does the handle of the cleaned sword look like the silver has some color to it? I wonder if that might not be a silver/copper alloy, which would account for the reddish-brown color of the patina.

I have some silver Thai swords of similar design where the silver patina turned a really nice, rich, lustrous midnight blue. A smalll polished area looked purely silver, but there is clearly an alloy metal there that caused a rather atypical patina color.

BTW, those two swords must be very troubling for you to keep track of--let me know if you want me to hold them for you.

Hi Andrew,

The silver handles actually have a blue colour to them in my eye, I'll find some natural lighting conditions to show it better. The same blue hue is seen in the blades too.
All the low laying areas carry a blue patina. I'll have a good look at the uncleaned pieces tonight and advise of any noticable attributes with in the brown colour.

Some times they are hard and troubling to keep track of and please know you are more than welcome to hold them if you ever visit Brisbane

Gav

Nathaniel · 11th March 2011, 04:43 AM

This Thai short polearm I have has a curious red/brown on the silver ferrule...I don't know if it is a stain...or a natural patina/tarnish...

Nathaniel · 11th March 2011, 04:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Gav, does the handle of the cleaned sword look like the silver has some color to it? I wonder if that might not be a silver/copper alloy, which would account for the reddish-brown color of the patina.

I have some silver Thai swords of similar design where the silver patina turned a really nice, rich, lustrous midnight blue. A smalll polished area looked purely silver, but there is clearly an alloy metal there that caused a rather atypical patina color.

BTW, those two swords must be very troubling for you to keep track of--let me know if you want me to hold them for you.

Yes, I've definitely seen different patina's on Thai silver....I remember too seeing some antique silver jewelry that was a surprising dark midnight blue hue! Love to see some pictures of those beautiful midnight blues :P

Nathaniel · 11th March 2011, 04:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Hi Andrew,

The silver handles actually have a blue colour to them in my eye, I'll find some natural lighting conditions to show it better. The same blue hue is seen in the blades too.
All the low laying areas carry a blue patina. I'll have a good look at the uncleaned pieces tonight and advise of any noticable attributes with in the brown colour.

Some times they are hard and troubling to keep track of and please know you are more than welcome to hold them if you ever visit Brisbane

Gav

The blades though are blue for another reason though

Very interesting...would love to see that captured in a good light as well!

Battara · 11th March 2011, 05:13 AM

Nathaniel, those areas look like silver tarnish. The purer the silver, the bluer the tarnish will be.

The problem is that the purer the silver, the softer it is and thus less durable, so copper is added in different amounts to strengthen the silver and make it more durable.

Nathaniel · 11th March 2011, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Nathaniel, those areas look like silver tarnish. The purer the silver, the bluer the tarnish will be.

The problem is that the purer the silver, the softer it is and thus less durable, so copper is added in different amounts to strengthen the silver and make it more durable.

Cool Jose

Thanks for the education in metallurgy...so much I have to learn! Love it.

kino · 11th March 2011, 05:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Nice sword. Thai, probably early 20th c., in my opinion.

I do not necessarily disagree with Gav that the handle material may well be a silver alloy. However, I'd lean more towards some other alloy--perhaps a type of brass (copper/zinc).

Andrew

Andrew, Thanks.

I have not had the time to look over or polish the hilt. This weekend I will have some time to do it and I will update on what I find.

Nathaniel, thanks for the additional info.

Andrew · 11th March 2011, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

Yes, I've definitely seen different patina's on Thai silver....I remember too seeing some antique silver jewelry that was a surprising dark midnight blue hue! Love to see some pictures of those beautiful midnight blues :P

Nathaniel, I have three swords with a very deep, blue patina. Don't have access to pics of the best one, however.

Here are pics from the HOS exhibition in Macau of my other two. Interstingly, in the light used to photograph them, the patina doesn't look blue--rather it looks quite brown in the one, and you can see hints of brown in the other (which, btw, has a handle very similar to Gav's beautiful matched set).

I think the vagaries of lighting, photography and computer monitor settings/quality are going to significantly affect our ability to really appreciate color and patina. No substitute for actually handling these...

Battara · 11th March 2011, 06:00 PM

Again not unusual. Silver patinas range from blue, yellow, brown, black.

Andrew · 11th March 2011, 10:49 PM

Agreed. However, the top one with the brown-looking patina in that photo is actually a dark blue patina in the hand!

Just pointing out that pics on the web aren't always helpful...

Nathaniel · 12th March 2011, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew

Nathaniel, I have three swords with a very deep, blue patina. Don't have access to pics of the best one, however.

Here are pics from the HOS exhibition in Macau of my other two. Interstingly, in the light used to photograph them, the patina doesn't look blue--rather it looks quite brown in the one, and you can see hints of brown in the other (which, btw, has a handle very similar to Gav's beautiful matched set).

I think the vagaries of lighting, photography and computer monitor settings/quality are going to significantly affect our ability to really appreciate color and patina. No substitute for actually handling these...

Thanks Andrew

Even though it doesn't show in the picture I can easily picture. I remember how surprised I was to see the definite blue hue of my auntie's antique jewelery. I never took a picture of them though...it would be interesting sometime to do that to see if I could get the blue to show up in a photo! Thanks for sharing.

Nathaniel · 12th March 2011, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kino

Andrew, Thanks.

I have not had the time to look over or polish the hilt. This weekend I will have some time to do it and I will update on what I find.

Nathaniel, thanks for the additional info.

I'm kind of torn...maybe just clean up a small spot...I like the patina regardless of what metal alloy it is....I know several Thai collectors comment how westerners like to clean up things too much.

Nathaniel · 12th March 2011, 04:14 AM

One interesting motif on your handle is the flower....you also see one in the two swords Gavin pictured and also this most recent sword on OA: http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=4565

tom hyle · 14th March 2011, 03:45 AM

Nathaniel; wow! How long is that naginatoid? Beauty!

Nathaniel · 14th March 2011, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Nathaniel; wow! How long is that naginatoid? Beauty!

Hello Tom

Which sword? Kino's seems to have about a 20 inch blade. None are mine

Andrew · 14th March 2011, 06:00 PM

I believe Tom is talking about the short pole arm of yours in post #16.

You know, the one you want to sell to me?

8th March 2011, 03:17 AM	#2
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Kino Interesting piece. The makers mark on the blade is a new one I have not seen before! You should add this one to the thread on dha/ daab makers marks! I'll let Mark, Andrew or someone else speak of the type. I'm not sure. Interesting though that the hilt is copper? Not something you see all that often. Maybe just the patina as there are several alloys in SEA. Thanks for sharing! Great find! Last edited by Nathaniel; 8th March 2011 at 06:22 AM.

8th March 2011, 03:18 AM	#3
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	beautiful A beautiful piece, congrats Kino. I like the blade very much. Whilst the hilt may appear copper to you, I think you will find it is tarnished silver. I have several Dha that were of this hue and they are silver. it appears many silvers from these regions go this colour, I am guessing something to do with the smelting process of the alloys and the inpurities they mix with the base metal. Congrats again. Gav

9th March 2011, 08:10 PM	#6
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Nice sword. Thai, probably early 20th c., in my opinion. I do not necessarily disagree with Gav that the handle material may well be a silver alloy. However, I'd lean more towards some other alloy--perhaps a type of brass (copper/zinc). Andrew Last edited by Andrew; 10th March 2011 at 01:01 AM. Reason: Meant Gav, not Nathaniel.

10th March 2011, 07:45 AM	#12
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Another view Another view...just never got around to finishing the job. Gav Attached Images

8th March 2011, 02:50 AM	#1
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,002	Question about a Dha I picked up this "Asian Sword", (sellers description), over the weekend at an antique show. I searched Mark Bowditch's D.R.A. ,for a similar looking example, found similar type of pommels but with different shaped blade and almost same type blade with diffferent hilts. Is this a Shan dha? it has these engravings on the blade that one might find on a tourist piece. I believe this one is fairly old judging by the patina on the copper hilt. Anyone want to take a stab at the age? Thanks in advance. Attached Images

8th March 2011, 06:22 AM	#4
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	The decoration on the blade reminds me of these two pieces: http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3789 http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=3776

8th March 2011, 05:21 PM	#5
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,002	Thanks guys. Tarnished silver alloy... Well when I get home this evening I will have to pay close attention to the material. Maybe polish a small section. Thanks for the link showing similar decorations.

9th March 2011, 08:18 PM	#7
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	According to the patina I see, I would say brass or, more likely, copper.

9th March 2011, 10:15 PM	#9
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Different alloys will patina differently, Gav.

10th March 2011, 12:44 AM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Right Andrew - on the money! I can tell that if the middle one has silver, it is a very low silver, but I would say most likely it is brass. The one on the left is low silver (if any silver) or perhaps nickel silver (no silver content) with perhaps a low silver pommel. The one on the right seems to have silver content. Again: different alloys = different patinas.

10th March 2011, 01:01 AM	#11
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Jose, the right and left handles shown by Gav are a matched set--the right one has been cleaned. I see what he is talking about--the patina on the left example sure does have a "coppery" tone. Again, it's going to be quite hard to definitively determine the metal just from the patina (not to mention the fact we're all only looking a pictures on a computer monitor). However, having said that (and having handled hundreds of examples from the region) I would say that the patina in the original example looks more like a brass alloy than a silver alloy.

10th March 2011, 07:36 PM	#13
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Gav, does the handle of the cleaned sword look like the silver has some color to it? I wonder if that might not be a silver/copper alloy, which would account for the reddish-brown color of the patina. I have some silver Thai swords of similar design where the silver patina turned a really nice, rich, lustrous midnight blue. A smalll polished area looked purely silver, but there is clearly an alloy metal there that caused a rather atypical patina color. BTW, those two swords must be very troubling for you to keep track of--let me know if you want me to hold them for you.

11th March 2011, 02:39 AM	#14
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Well most silver is an alloy of some copper. However, if there is a slight reddish hue, then there may be more copper in it making it a lower silver content. Good point on the patina - tarnish may turn brown on silver, especially the more copper it has.

11th March 2011, 04:43 AM	#16
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	This Thai short polearm I have has a curious red/brown on the silver ferrule...I don't know if it is a stain...or a natural patina/tarnish...

11th March 2011, 05:13 AM	#19
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Nathaniel, those areas look like silver tarnish. The purer the silver, the bluer the tarnish will be. The problem is that the purer the silver, the softer it is and thus less durable, so copper is added in different amounts to strengthen the silver and make it more durable.

11th March 2011, 06:00 PM	#23
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Again not unusual. Silver patinas range from blue, yellow, brown, black.

11th March 2011, 10:49 PM	#24
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Agreed. However, the top one with the brown-looking patina in that photo is actually a dark blue patina in the hand! Just pointing out that pics on the web aren't always helpful...

12th March 2011, 04:14 AM	#27
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	One interesting motif on your handle is the flower....you also see one in the two swords Gavin pictured and also this most recent sword on OA: http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=4565

14th March 2011, 03:45 AM	#28
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Nathaniel; wow! How long is that naginatoid? Beauty!

14th March 2011, 06:00 PM	#30
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I believe Tom is talking about the short pole arm of yours in post #16. You know, the one you want to sell to me?