Does Anyone Have Any Idea About This Asian (?) Sword?

Casaubon · 13th September 2019, 03:57 PM

Hi
As this is my first post I should first say a big thanks to all the contributors to these boards.
I’ve been getting interested in swords over the last few years, and I’ve learned a lot from this site. Apart from the knowledge gained, you’ve also saved me money by steering me away from a couple of probable fakes.

Does anyone have any idea about this sword?

I bought it without knowing what it was. Normally I’d say that was a dumb move, but I was very curious and it was affordable.

I can’t see any makers or other marks.
It feels very solid, and fairly heavy for its size – 1kg without the scabbard.

The blade is 615mm, the hilt 150mm (not including the suspension loop).
I think the blade may be of a laminated type, but my inexperienced eyes can’t confidently see through the dirt and tarnish. It has a pretty good edge.
The brass components of the hilt show traces of silver plating.

The shape of the blade (goose wing?) to me looks possibly Chinese, and the hilt looks very vaguely Tibetan...........maybe.

If I had to guess I’d say it might be from China, perhaps from a local armoury or arsenal during the first half of the last century. But that’s just a wild, uneducated guess, I have no idea really.

I’d be very grateful for your opinions.
I’m sorry the pics are pretty poor, I’m happy to try and take some better ones if it’d be helpful.

Thanks in advance,

Casaubon

RobT · 15th September 2019, 02:57 AM

The picture is small but from what I can see, the metal tassel ring looks like the one on my NCO shin gunto. Considering the length of the sheath, could the tip of the sword have been broken?

Sincerely,
RobT

Rich · 15th September 2019, 12:08 PM

Sorry, but the closest that has been to Japan is China or Indonesia,etc.
Not a Japanese NCO or Shingunto IMHO.
Rich

David R · 15th September 2019, 05:43 PM

Best guess is Indonesian, imitating a Shin Gunto. We know these were made with very variable approaches to copying the original. Carried by officers in PETA ... The Indonesian Independence militia.

RobT · 16th September 2019, 04:46 AM

Rich,

I'm sorry for being unclear. I didn't mean to imply that the sword was in any way Japanese but rather that the part may have come from a Japanese model 95 or may have been copied from same. I still wonder if the tip of the blade had been broken off.

Sincerely,
RobT

kronckew · 16th September 2019, 08:12 AM

Almost bid on that one myself. It's an oddball and opened cheaply.

Had other irons in the fire tho. The Dutch are fond of clip pointed swords, so may have been a Dutch East Indies area marriage. guard look dished like a Chinese one, tonku looks odd, grip is round like Burmese/Thai Dha/Daab, raised rim bits of wood over brass are odd, and the loop on the pommel may have been for a sword knot or tassel. All in all - unusual. Probably WW2, doubt it was in any way japanese military. Police maybe?

David R · 16th September 2019, 12:39 PM

PETA (Indonesian: Pembela Tanah Air – Defenders of the Homeland) or Kyōdo Bōei Giyūgun (郷土防衛義勇軍) was an Indonesian volunteer army established on 3 October 1943 in Indonesia by the occupying Japanese. The Japanese intended PETA to assist their forces in opposing a possible invasion by the Allies. The word PETA itself means map in local language. By the end of the war, there were a total of 69 battalions (daidan) in Java (around 37,000 men) and Sumatra (approximately 20,000 men). On 17 August 1945, the day after the Indonesian Declaration of Independence, the Japanese ordered the PETA daidan to surrender and hand over their weapons, which most of them did. The Indonesian Republic's newly declared President, Sukarno, supported the dissolution rather than turn the organisation into a national army as he feared allegations of collaboration had he allowed a Japanese-created militia to continue in existence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pembela_Tanah_Air

It's worth being aware of these guys, as their swords keep turning up on the collectors market. They are often called "Island Swords" or even "Last Ditch" but are in fact local made copies of, or are influenced by Japanese Shin-Gunto. Follow the link for more about them
I think these blades are collectable, but worth bearing in mind that they are not Japanese, and this effects resale value.

Ian · 16th September 2019, 01:10 PM

Wayne is on to something I think with his reference to the clipped blade of the Dutch klewang (a.k.a. Maréchaussée sabel), which has been discussed on these pages previously—see, for example, here. The blade of the sword that Casaubon shows has a tip similar to that of the Dutch klewang, but the blade is not from that sword—the Dutch klewang has a curved blade and the fuller is different.

Many, many Dutch klewang were modified by occupying Japanese forces in Indonesia, and the conversions they made have been lumped under the title of heiho knives and swords. Frequent characteristics of the heiho pieces are removal of the knuckle bow on the original klewang, and shortening of the blade by removing the distal part that included the clipped tip. Resulting blade lengths varied from 20+ inches down to as short as 12 inches. They were used mainly as jungle knives and machetes.

13th September 2019, 03:57 PM	#1
Casaubon Member Join Date: Sep 2019 Posts: 2	Does Anyone Have Any Idea About This Asian (?) Sword? Hi As this is my first post I should first say a big thanks to all the contributors to these boards. I’ve been getting interested in swords over the last few years, and I’ve learned a lot from this site. Apart from the knowledge gained, you’ve also saved me money by steering me away from a couple of probable fakes. Does anyone have any idea about this sword? I bought it without knowing what it was. Normally I’d say that was a dumb move, but I was very curious and it was affordable. I can’t see any makers or other marks. It feels very solid, and fairly heavy for its size – 1kg without the scabbard. The blade is 615mm, the hilt 150mm (not including the suspension loop). I think the blade may be of a laminated type, but my inexperienced eyes can’t confidently see through the dirt and tarnish. It has a pretty good edge. The brass components of the hilt show traces of silver plating. The shape of the blade (goose wing?) to me looks possibly Chinese, and the hilt looks very vaguely Tibetan...........maybe. If I had to guess I’d say it might be from China, perhaps from a local armoury or arsenal during the first half of the last century. But that’s just a wild, uneducated guess, I have no idea really. I’d be very grateful for your opinions. I’m sorry the pics are pretty poor, I’m happy to try and take some better ones if it’d be helpful. Thanks in advance, Casaubon Attached Images

15th September 2019, 02:57 AM	#2
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 486	broken tip? The picture is small but from what I can see, the metal tassel ring looks like the one on my NCO shin gunto. Considering the length of the sheath, could the tip of the sword have been broken? Sincerely, RobT

15th September 2019, 05:43 PM	#4
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Best guess is Indonesian, imitating a Shin Gunto. We know these were made with very variable approaches to copying the original. Carried by officers in PETA ... The Indonesian Independence militia. Attached Images

15th September 2019, 12:08 PM	#3
Rich Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: comfortably at home, USA Posts: 432	Sorry, but the closest that has been to Japan is China or Indonesia,etc. Not a Japanese NCO or Shingunto IMHO. Rich

16th September 2019, 04:46 AM	#5
RobT Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 486	Rich, I'm sorry for being unclear. I didn't mean to imply that the sword was in any way Japanese but rather that the part may have come from a Japanese model 95 or may have been copied from same. I still wonder if the tip of the blade had been broken off. Sincerely, RobT

16th September 2019, 08:12 AM	#6
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,178	Almost bid on that one myself. It's an oddball and opened cheaply. Had other irons in the fire tho. The Dutch are fond of clip pointed swords, so may have been a Dutch East Indies area marriage. guard look dished like a Chinese one, tonku looks odd, grip is round like Burmese/Thai Dha/Daab, raised rim bits of wood over brass are odd, and the loop on the pommel may have been for a sword knot or tassel. All in all - unusual. Probably WW2, doubt it was in any way japanese military. Police maybe?

16th September 2019, 12:39 PM	#7
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	PETA (Indonesian: Pembela Tanah Air – Defenders of the Homeland) or Kyōdo Bōei Giyūgun (郷土防衛義勇軍) was an Indonesian volunteer army established on 3 October 1943 in Indonesia by the occupying Japanese. The Japanese intended PETA to assist their forces in opposing a possible invasion by the Allies. The word PETA itself means map in local language. By the end of the war, there were a total of 69 battalions (daidan) in Java (around 37,000 men) and Sumatra (approximately 20,000 men). On 17 August 1945, the day after the Indonesian Declaration of Independence, the Japanese ordered the PETA daidan to surrender and hand over their weapons, which most of them did. The Indonesian Republic's newly declared President, Sukarno, supported the dissolution rather than turn the organisation into a national army as he feared allegations of collaboration had he allowed a Japanese-created militia to continue in existence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pembela_Tanah_Air It's worth being aware of these guys, as their swords keep turning up on the collectors market. They are often called "Island Swords" or even "Last Ditch" but are in fact local made copies of, or are influenced by Japanese Shin-Gunto. Follow the link for more about them I think these blades are collectable, but worth bearing in mind that they are not Japanese, and this effects resale value.

16th September 2019, 01:10 PM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,194	Wayne is on to something I think with his reference to the clipped blade of the Dutch klewang (a.k.a. Maréchaussée sabel), which has been discussed on these pages previously—see, for example, here. The blade of the sword that Casaubon shows has a tip similar to that of the Dutch klewang, but the blade is not from that sword—the Dutch klewang has a curved blade and the fuller is different. Many, many Dutch klewang were modified by occupying Japanese forces in Indonesia, and the conversions they made have been lumped under the title of heiho knives and swords. Frequent characteristics of the heiho pieces are removal of the knuckle bow on the original klewang, and shortening of the blade by removing the distal part that included the clipped tip. Resulting blade lengths varied from 20+ inches down to as short as 12 inches. They were used mainly as jungle knives and machetes.