Potential Gem Amongst The Rough

shaun2k · 11th November 2013, 03:50 PM

Hello Guys and Gals

My Name is Shaun Myatt and i live in the UK

This is my first post on the forum, and i firstly want to say thanks for having me here and to gift me with your knowledge and interest.

Oh where to start...

This will be my sort of progress thread, where i will show all my research/findings/communication between critics/scholars/scientists etc, and an up to date account of the progress or lack of progress that I'm making.

I'm really pushing hard now into science based work on the sword using various sources and labs to get the results i think I'm seeing unfold on this strange but majestic sword as i did on my early research..

The sword is a clever bitch and she gives some snippets of information to get my juices flowing, but is stubborn as hell in other ways which I'm desperate for answers, which i seem to be finding, but cant regulate the control needed to flow to the end of reason and fact, this is where i need science in effect.

ABOUT THE SWORD..[/SIZE]

The sword was Found in Torrington in Devon in 1975 by a man called Dave whitlock, who was in his later stage of life, but a keen metal detector fanatic at the time and has since died in 1999. As the story goes he was metal detecting close to pollards hill in Torrington one afternoon in a Saxon settlement which he wasn't meant to be in (for some reason i have this image of this grumpy obtuse man who feels he's matured above the law)
He found the sword 24" down in a sandy/clay based area, and took it home with him to wales later that week. For obvious reasons he failed to notify anybody of the find, and started this wrecking ball of misfortune since.

i will point out there was no mention of the handle/ traces of any pommel or organic fragments at the time.

On his deathbed he Allowed his Grandson to take ownership of the sword as well as giving his massive collection of finds to family members as you do..
Some of the items in his collection i have to say where pretty swish, including and not limited to a Celtic band, a gold medieval patriots ring and some coins that made me start salivating, and the normal generic finds that most keen hunters find.

This gave me some indication that maybe this guy was the real deal and a genuine hunter that had served time.

The sword caught my eye one evening when i was looking for some cheap but interesting things for my collection, and to be honest the sword was listed as an unknown (you will see why in a bit) he had taken the sword to various people and got a remarkable amount of varied comments as to the sword origin. he had (bless him) searched for a long time for the answer, but never took it to anybody of real merit or note, and this was probably due to the circumstances in which the sword was acquired originally, and the fact he was under the illusion that the museum would take ownership of the sword due to its ability to shrug off paperwork, and its vague story.
I purchased the sword for £400.00 as a cheap unknown but pretty item, that has been pride of place in my from room, locked in a sealed cabinet (mainly for looks i will add

When i collected the sword, it must admit i thought it was bigger in the pictures, so i was a little tilted by the size of the sword (22" from end to end) 2.5-3" wide and around 10-15mm deep, i have not really measured the depth accurately.
however it was very powerful to hold and i liked that, it was in good shape, and this gave a little concern as did the issue of the sword being cleaned (but cleaned well i suppose and not overdone imho).

Even at the time i could see a faint pattern which can be noted in the first picture below, and this made me excited as to what it maybe. the sword was consistent in areas that had not been cleaned to something that was eroded and buried in the ground with a shiny and light blue tint skin of tarnish that was present on the edges of the sword.

it was a while before i started to investigate these markings and i really just enjoyed the novelty of just having it at first, and i did the making of the frame, the air tight container etc to present it.

About a month later i decide to investigate somewhat.

Now here is the only part of the story where hell and excitement go together hand in hand.
At the same time, i was asking around for advice on the origin of the sword, and working on enhancing the images i was trying to see on its faces.

figure 1:

This is an image of the sword when i purchased it:

As you can see, there are a few areas that look like they have patterns or symbols, as well as some deep marks down one side of the sword from impacts in its past. I also noted that there seemed to be two materials to the construction of the sword one of which didn't seem to like rusting, with the deeper parts of the sword oxidizing through in little holes and marks in the sword. i assumed that this maybe due to an inlay of some description or two layers if you will of the construction.

Whilst this was going on i find hidden away under some tarnish crust a maker stamp (what would seem anyways)

Figure 2: The maker stamp (slightly enhanced for better viewing)

The stamp is very clear and seems to depict some strange character with a few dots included in a half moon shape it looks like he may be holding a hammer, but everybody may have a different view on this.

Figure 3: This is a set of symbols on the side of the tang (right side) which are very clear and well struck, only small (10mm across max) and this could be bigger or longer, i have not probed that anymore at this point

Straight away i was toying with the idea it was maybe Saxon/Celtic and had similar markings to what was found in Saxon/Scandinavian runes. I also later found out that Torrington was a Saxon Settlement called Toritona in it's younger days, and this could be a strong hint towards the origin of the sword

I then by shear fluke developed quite a novel but effective way of pulling back depth to the sword that seems to be quite reliable

What i have been doing is using 2 specific photoshop tools (dodge and burn) which only effect lights and dark's on the sword without effecting the opposite contrast.

i played with this for 6 months over and over again, and what images your about to see are fairly moving and interesting and appear time and time again

Figure 4: is a section of the sword which seems to have some kind of text/runes/symbols that i know nothing about, but from researching Nordic runes, i hazard a guess that it maybe from the same period at least.

now i will leave it there for a minute and see what responses i get because you have to understand that i live in Cornwall, i don't have anybody to share this with more so with knowledge of the subject

Iain · 11th November 2013, 06:01 PM

I'll just leave one thought here, the blade profile, fuller and style is oddly similar to the Salampasu form from Congo (image credit goes to spearcollector.com).

shaun2k · 13th November 2013, 04:38 PM

oh my god!! that is the closest yet to the design most definitely, although the end is different slightly

shaun2k · 13th November 2013, 07:54 PM

Thank you for that image, it is that type of sword to sad to say, it must have had the end damaged and re pointed, obviously i was spun a yarn by the previous owner..it must certainly wasn't found in the ground in Torrington by his grandad, he obviously knew this, and that makes 12 months of research and excitement vanish very fast.. I'm really gutted because i made myself look a fool in front of some of the leading specialists in the country..

I was right though about one thing, i said it wasn't from England originally..

A few lessons here have been taken in.

i paid £400.00 for it + 300 miles of fuel, wasted 12 months of my social life and made myself look very stupid.

no-wonder the antiquity world are cagey about new artifacts really, if this is how low people go to make a few quid

Jim McDougall · 14th November 2013, 01:51 AM

Shaun,
Despite the rather unfortunate outcome, I would like to say that your time and trouble in the research you did and chose to present here was in my perception ..brilliant!!! It is often said that the true treasure in a treasure hunt is not riches nor gold, it is more often the hunt itself!

You have also displayed something truly remarkable in the integrity you showed by openly standing tall in the final results. You did not by any means discredit yourself, quite the contrary, and your presentation and methodical details were 'textbook! Bravo, and I hope we will see more of your work here.

Very best regards, Jim

Iain · 14th November 2013, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaun2k

Thank you for that image, it is that type of sword to sad to say, it must have had the end damaged and re pointed, obviously i was spun a yarn by the previous owner..it must certainly wasn't found in the ground in Torrington by his grandad, he obviously knew this, and that makes 12 months of research and excitement vanish very fast.. I'm really gutted because i made myself look a fool in front of some of the leading specialists in the country..

I was right though about one thing, i said it wasn't from England originally..

A few lessons here have been taken in.

i paid £400.00 for it + 300 miles of fuel, wasted 12 months of my social life and made myself look very stupid.

no-wonder the antiquity world are cagey about new artifacts really, if this is how low people go to make a few quid

Hi Shaun,

I didn't want to elaborate too much in my first post because I know all too well the pain of a purchase that was not what you expected and the time spent figuring it out. I have to say you are taking it better than most collectors I know!

There are a ridiculous number of fakes on the market when it comes to ancient and European arms and sadly once an item has passed through an auction house or two, this starts to be taken as provenance. There are also those out there who don't hesitate to cobble together parts and call it something unique for the unsuspecting buyer. Sad, but unfortunately the state of the collecting world these days. I rarely buy on the open market anymore myself even though my area of specialty is thankfully rarely troubled by deliberate fakes.

fernando · 14th November 2013, 01:26 PM

Hi Shaun,
Nobody looks like a fool for being defrauded in this forum, as nobody should out there, either.
We all have once (or twice, you count it) been taken for a ride.

If someone tells you that experience is achieved without making mistakes, is surely lying with all his teeth.

Pukka Bundook · 14th November 2013, 01:48 PM

Shaun,

As 'Nando just said, we have all been taken at some point.
I am really impressed how you handled this, as I know it is rather soul-destroying when it happens!
I know it will be a lesson well learned, and look forward to seeing you post in the future.

All the best,
Richard.

T. Koch · 4th December 2013, 03:12 PM

Hi Shaun!

I mostly hang out over in the Ethno-section but I just read your thread here and thought I'd tell you this. Sincerely hope you are still around to read it bro.

It happens all the time that people come on the forum, here and elsewhere, to present an item which then turns out to be something very different - an often less - than they expected. One of two things then usually happens: 1) They leave and never make a sound beyond the initial post - or - 2) They get really angry, start arguing and then leave and never make another sound.

I just want to thank you for not being like this! You seem like a smart and enthusiastic guy and it takes (internet-)guts to stand up and display your mistakes like this. I can surely understand that you are pissed about having been taken for a ride - I would be too - but I just want you to know, that even though the back-story of the sword turned out to be fake, the excitement you felt researching the sword during those 12 months is a very real and tangible thing! Holding these things in hand is a fantastic rush and a direct connection back to history! It's like a bug that makes most of us around here go crazy and depending on your specific area of interest, it's a thrill that can certainly be had for less than £400,-.

When you take a hit like you just have, one just have to roll with the punches and as you said yourself, learn the lesson and move on. Read as much as you possibly can on your area of focus and try to meet up with local people, if you have the opportunity.
These boards are also an incredible resource as well as a nice place to hang out and I sincerely hope you will stick around and soon post some new stuff.

With the very best wishes, - Thor

11th November 2013, 03:50 PM	#1
shaun2k Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 3	Potential Gem Amongst The Rough Hello Guys and Gals My Name is Shaun Myatt and i live in the UK This is my first post on the forum, and i firstly want to say thanks for having me here and to gift me with your knowledge and interest. Oh where to start... This will be my sort of progress thread, where i will show all my research/findings/communication between critics/scholars/scientists etc, and an up to date account of the progress or lack of progress that I'm making. I'm really pushing hard now into science based work on the sword using various sources and labs to get the results i think I'm seeing unfold on this strange but majestic sword as i did on my early research.. The sword is a clever bitch and she gives some snippets of information to get my juices flowing, but is stubborn as hell in other ways which I'm desperate for answers, which i seem to be finding, but cant regulate the control needed to flow to the end of reason and fact, this is where i need science in effect. ABOUT THE SWORD..[/SIZE] The sword was Found in Torrington in Devon in 1975 by a man called Dave whitlock, who was in his later stage of life, but a keen metal detector fanatic at the time and has since died in 1999. As the story goes he was metal detecting close to pollards hill in Torrington one afternoon in a Saxon settlement which he wasn't meant to be in (for some reason i have this image of this grumpy obtuse man who feels he's matured above the law) He found the sword 24" down in a sandy/clay based area, and took it home with him to wales later that week. For obvious reasons he failed to notify anybody of the find, and started this wrecking ball of misfortune since. i will point out there was no mention of the handle/ traces of any pommel or organic fragments at the time. On his deathbed he Allowed his Grandson to take ownership of the sword as well as giving his massive collection of finds to family members as you do.. Some of the items in his collection i have to say where pretty swish, including and not limited to a Celtic band, a gold medieval patriots ring and some coins that made me start salivating, and the normal generic finds that most keen hunters find. This gave me some indication that maybe this guy was the real deal and a genuine hunter that had served time. The sword caught my eye one evening when i was looking for some cheap but interesting things for my collection, and to be honest the sword was listed as an unknown (you will see why in a bit) he had taken the sword to various people and got a remarkable amount of varied comments as to the sword origin. he had (bless him) searched for a long time for the answer, but never took it to anybody of real merit or note, and this was probably due to the circumstances in which the sword was acquired originally, and the fact he was under the illusion that the museum would take ownership of the sword due to its ability to shrug off paperwork, and its vague story. I purchased the sword for £400.00 as a cheap unknown but pretty item, that has been pride of place in my from room, locked in a sealed cabinet (mainly for looks i will add When i collected the sword, it must admit i thought it was bigger in the pictures, so i was a little tilted by the size of the sword (22" from end to end) 2.5-3" wide and around 10-15mm deep, i have not really measured the depth accurately. however it was very powerful to hold and i liked that, it was in good shape, and this gave a little concern as did the issue of the sword being cleaned (but cleaned well i suppose and not overdone imho). Even at the time i could see a faint pattern which can be noted in the first picture below, and this made me excited as to what it maybe. the sword was consistent in areas that had not been cleaned to something that was eroded and buried in the ground with a shiny and light blue tint skin of tarnish that was present on the edges of the sword. it was a while before i started to investigate these markings and i really just enjoyed the novelty of just having it at first, and i did the making of the frame, the air tight container etc to present it. About a month later i decide to investigate somewhat. Now here is the only part of the story where hell and excitement go together hand in hand. At the same time, i was asking around for advice on the origin of the sword, and working on enhancing the images i was trying to see on its faces. figure 1: This is an image of the sword when i purchased it: As you can see, there are a few areas that look like they have patterns or symbols, as well as some deep marks down one side of the sword from impacts in its past. I also noted that there seemed to be two materials to the construction of the sword one of which didn't seem to like rusting, with the deeper parts of the sword oxidizing through in little holes and marks in the sword. i assumed that this maybe due to an inlay of some description or two layers if you will of the construction. Whilst this was going on i find hidden away under some tarnish crust a maker stamp (what would seem anyways) Figure 2: The maker stamp (slightly enhanced for better viewing) The stamp is very clear and seems to depict some strange character with a few dots included in a half moon shape it looks like he may be holding a hammer, but everybody may have a different view on this. Figure 3: This is a set of symbols on the side of the tang (right side) which are very clear and well struck, only small (10mm across max) and this could be bigger or longer, i have not probed that anymore at this point Straight away i was toying with the idea it was maybe Saxon/Celtic and had similar markings to what was found in Saxon/Scandinavian runes. I also later found out that Torrington was a Saxon Settlement called Toritona in it's younger days, and this could be a strong hint towards the origin of the sword I then by shear fluke developed quite a novel but effective way of pulling back depth to the sword that seems to be quite reliable What i have been doing is using 2 specific photoshop tools (dodge and burn) which only effect lights and dark's on the sword without effecting the opposite contrast. i played with this for 6 months over and over again, and what images your about to see are fairly moving and interesting and appear time and time again Figure 4: is a section of the sword which seems to have some kind of text/runes/symbols that i know nothing about, but from researching Nordic runes, i hazard a guess that it maybe from the same period at least. now i will leave it there for a minute and see what responses i get because you have to understand that i live in Cornwall, i don't have anybody to share this with more so with knowledge of the subject

11th November 2013, 06:01 PM	#2
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	I'll just leave one thought here, the blade profile, fuller and style is oddly similar to the Salampasu form from Congo (image credit goes to spearcollector.com). Attached Images

13th November 2013, 04:38 PM	#3
shaun2k Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 3	oh my god!! that is the closest yet to the design most definitely, although the end is different slightly

13th November 2013, 07:54 PM	#4
shaun2k Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 3	Thank you for that image, it is that type of sword to sad to say, it must have had the end damaged and re pointed, obviously i was spun a yarn by the previous owner..it must certainly wasn't found in the ground in Torrington by his grandad, he obviously knew this, and that makes 12 months of research and excitement vanish very fast.. I'm really gutted because i made myself look a fool in front of some of the leading specialists in the country.. I was right though about one thing, i said it wasn't from England originally.. A few lessons here have been taken in. i paid £400.00 for it + 300 miles of fuel, wasted 12 months of my social life and made myself look very stupid. no-wonder the antiquity world are cagey about new artifacts really, if this is how low people go to make a few quid

14th November 2013, 01:51 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Shaun, Despite the rather unfortunate outcome, I would like to say that your time and trouble in the research you did and chose to present here was in my perception ..brilliant!!! It is often said that the true treasure in a treasure hunt is not riches nor gold, it is more often the hunt itself! You have also displayed something truly remarkable in the integrity you showed by openly standing tall in the final results. You did not by any means discredit yourself, quite the contrary, and your presentation and methodical details were 'textbook! Bravo, and I hope we will see more of your work here. Very best regards, Jim

14th November 2013, 01:26 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Shaun, Nobody looks like a fool for being defrauded in this forum, as nobody should out there, either. We all have once (or twice, you count it) been taken for a ride. If someone tells you that experience is achieved without making mistakes, is surely lying with all his teeth.

14th November 2013, 01:48 PM	#8
Pukka Bundook Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 803	Shaun, As 'Nando just said, we have all been taken at some point. I am really impressed how you handled this, as I know it is rather soul-destroying when it happens! I know it will be a lesson well learned, and look forward to seeing you post in the future. All the best, Richard.

4th December 2013, 03:12 PM	#9
T. Koch Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Mother North Posts: 189	Hi Shaun! I mostly hang out over in the Ethno-section but I just read your thread here and thought I'd tell you this. Sincerely hope you are still around to read it bro. It happens all the time that people come on the forum, here and elsewhere, to present an item which then turns out to be something very different - an often less - than they expected. One of two things then usually happens: 1) They leave and never make a sound beyond the initial post - or - 2) They get really angry, start arguing and then leave and never make another sound. I just want to thank you for not being like this! You seem like a smart and enthusiastic guy and it takes (internet-)guts to stand up and display your mistakes like this. I can surely understand that you are pissed about having been taken for a ride - I would be too - but I just want you to know, that even though the back-story of the sword turned out to be fake, the excitement you felt researching the sword during those 12 months is a very real and tangible thing! Holding these things in hand is a fantastic rush and a direct connection back to history! It's like a bug that makes most of us around here go crazy and depending on your specific area of interest, it's a thrill that can certainly be had for less than £400,-. When you take a hit like you just have, one just have to roll with the punches and as you said yourself, learn the lesson and move on. Read as much as you possibly can on your area of focus and try to meet up with local people, if you have the opportunity. These boards are also an incredible resource as well as a nice place to hang out and I sincerely hope you will stick around and soon post some new stuff. With the very best wishes, - Thor