javanese keris

mhm27 · 12th June 2005, 04:40 PM

bought this 3 years ago but lost info about this keris but can remember that it`s a javanese origin i think.Any info or feedback appreiciate.......

Mans · 17th June 2005, 10:53 PM

I think so, that your keris is Javanese origin. The scabbard like a very old style from East Java. Discontinued product for now. This keris seems like from Pajang period (about 16-17th century).
You can comparing the characteristic with this one : http://kerisbudi.fotopic.net/c580201.html

Congratulation that you bought an old Javanese keris !!

Regards,
Manshur Hidayat

mhm27 · 19th June 2005, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mans

I think so, that your keris is Javanese origin. The scabbard like a very old style from East Java. Discontinued product for now. This keris seems like from Pajang period (about 16-17th century).
You can comparing the characteristic with this one : http://kerisbudi.fotopic.net/c580201.html

Congratulation that you bought an old Javanese keris !!

Regards,
Manshur Hidayat

Hello Man,

thanks for your info as i`m lost with this kris as this is my first and i know nothing until recently that i found about this forum and get to learn more about the kris world.anyway will appreciate more feedbacks form others who has any to share,

regards
mhm

Alam Shah · 5th July 2005, 02:50 PM

Keris Jawa, luk 9.
Ukiran : wanda Surakarta.
Wrangka : Ladrang Branggah Persisiran.

Picture of the wood is too blur to determine wood/type of the warangka.

rahman · 6th July 2005, 08:44 AM

Pak Hidayat

Can you pls help identify the dapur for this keris? Is it a sempana as in your website?

Discontinued model? Very interesting...

Mans · 6th July 2005, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahman

Pak Hidayat
Can you pls help identify the dapur for this keris? Is it a sempana as in your website?
Discontinued model? Very interesting...

Ass.Kum pak Rachman,

Yes you right. The dapur of this keris is Sempana;
(http://keris.fotopic.net/c584030.html)
(http://keris.fotopic.net/c491687.html)

Often the keris from Palembang and Pajajaran (not Pajang as I said before) can make me confused. Keris from Pajajaran and Palembang has same characteristic (Jawa = Pasikutan). Perhaps it can be happen because the places of Pajajaran Kingdom is near with Palembang (just separated with Sunda Straits), so that the keris from those places looks same.
But, the blade of Palembang keris are stronger and thicker (Jawa = Ngelimpa) than Pajajaran keris.

About the wrangka, I shaw the old wrangka with no pendok like this near with East Java style. But, sometimes we found it in Palembang keris. But if the Palembang style, each tip of wrangka bender that Javanese style. So that why I said this wrangka is old (antique) east Java style.

I do not know about the WANDA of this wrangka as Alam Shah wrote

WANDA is mean the specific carving style (not just style). If I'm not forget, the Wrangka Surakarta style has 8-9 Wanda and the Jogjakarta style has 8 Wanda like Ngabehan, Bancihan, Pakualaman, Mangkubumen, etc....

Best Regards,
Manshur Hidayat.

Alam Shah · 6th July 2005, 05:10 PM

The wrangka can also be from Old Sulawesi.
click here for comparison of ladrang sheath.

rahman · 6th July 2005, 05:17 PM

Pak Hidayat

It's interesting that you say this model has been "discontinued". Any reason why? Maybe the empu emigrated to Palembang?

I can't say for sure just how old this keris is, but I have a couple of Palembang blades with similar features -- and I don't think they are that old.

Mans · 6th July 2005, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahman

Pak Hidayat
It's interesting that you say this model has been "discontinued". Any reason why? Maybe the empu emigrated to Palembang?

Pak Rahman,
The men whose make the Wrangka not Empu, but called Mranggi. The Empu not making the Wrangka

Discontinued, I mean not made again by Mranggi worker. Perhaps the market not too interesting with wrangka like this. I don't know too much about the reason.

But, it's too hard to find the Wrangka like this in "New Made" except we ordering to Mranggi worker.
Here I posted some old wrangka which hard to find at keris market in New Made.

Perhaps you right that the wrangka and the blade are Palembang piece. I just don't know how thin this blade ? If this keris is thick, it is Palembang keris.

Best Regards,

rahman · 7th July 2005, 03:22 AM

Ah! You meant the mranggi... But the wrangka shown could note have been from the 16-17th Century, so someone must still be making it. Perhaps not in East Java but in the northern pesisiran states. Semarang perhaps?

Thanks for the photos. I'm attracted to the Sari Bulan wrangka. Is that from Java? It does look like the Sumatran ones but a lot broader.

marto suwignyo · 7th July 2005, 04:24 AM

I feel it is rather difficult to be able to attach any certainty to the tangguh or classification of any keris blade based upon what can be seen in a photograph.

All one can see in a photo is an outline, and sometimes, if it is a good photograph, an indication of the blade features.

When we attempt to determine the tangguh of a blade we need a lot more information than is available to us from a photograph.

It may be a legitimate exercise to propose a tangguh from a photo in the case of some blades, as for instance a Sigaluh blade which is unique in its proportions and was very seldom a subject for later copies, but to affix a Pajajaran tangguh from a photo is something that is quite impossible to do , as even with the blade in the hand, Pajajaran and Mataram Senopaten are often confused, even by people experienced in the application of the parameters which can indicate a tangguh.

Pajajaran blades were subject to copy by Gresik, and it is difficult to tell a Gresik copy from an original Pajajaran unless you feel the texture of the blade surface:- Gresik pamor has a greasy feel to it, Pajajaran does not. Also, Pajajaran blades tend to have a tiny gap between the blade core and the pamor, this can often only be seen under magnification.

Then we have Tuban-Pajajaran blades, and Pajajaran itself is split into two distinct classifications, one having a blumbangan that is boto adeg (brick standing), one having a blumbangan that is boto rubuh (fallen brick ). Again , some ahli keris maintain that there are in fact three distinct categories of Pajajaran keris, not just two.

There are about a dozen indicators that must be considered before we can confidently give a tangguh for a blade, and be able to defend our decision that the blade in question could be of that particular tangguh. An outline from a photograph is simply not enough to go on, especially when there are so many possibilities, as is the case with blades of tangguh Pajajaran.

Also, it is wise to bear this in mind:- the word "tangguh" means "estimate". Even if you have twenty ahli keris in agreement that a blade carries the features of a particular tangguh, it is still just an opinion. It can never be graven in stone, unless the provenance of the particular blade is known.

Additionally there is no evidence that the tangguh classification that attaches to extremely old blades, such as Sigaluh, Pajajaran, or Jengala is representative of that blade having a point of origin in time that equates to the historic period from which it takes its name.

As many ahli keris in Central Jawa will say:- "tangguh ngak sungguh". Roughly, "tangguh is not real". The tangguh system is a good and a necessary system to allow us to classify keris, but it should be used within the context for which it was developed.

As for Palembang, there are several styles of blade that can be associated with Palembang, but the one style that we can be certain of as Palembang in origin, and not a blade that has come into Palembang by trade, is the Palembang blade style having the features of a Central Javanese blade, but with variations in material and execution. The Palembang court had an association with Central Javanese courts from the time of Sultan Agung.

When we wish to give a tangguh, or a classification to a keris blade, it is always best to very cautious. In the case of the blade in this thread, perhaps the best we can say is that it has shallow waves similar to the waves of a Pajajaran blade. But it also has the steeply angled gonjo that we associate with old Madura blades. Personally, I would not be prepared to attempt to give a classification for this blade unless I held it in my hand, and it was freshly stained.

Alam Shah · 7th July 2005, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahman

Thanks for the photos. I'm attracted to the Sari Bulan wrangka. Is that from Java? It does look like the Sumatran ones but a lot broader.

The picture is Warangka Tanggalan model known since Kesultanan Demak but faded towards the end of Mataram Kartasura era. Even then, it managed to spread to Sumatra and Peninsula Malaya.

An attack led by Adipati Yunus with the armada from the Demak kingdom, at Singapura in the year 1511, to repel the Portugese from the island, might brought the influence and development of the sheath form into the Peninsula Melayu including Riau.

Alam Shah · 7th July 2005, 05:28 AM

In the olden days, the warangka tanggalan which started during the Demak Kingdom started to decline after the fall on the kingdom.

This sheath form started the warangka gayaman and ladrang.

The practice of making the tanggalan form ceased near the end of the Mataram Kartasura era. Although it ceased in Java, the evolved sheath form are still made outside Java. It is known as sarung keris sampir bahari, or sarung keris Bangkinang, or Dua Hari Bulan. The form is still being made in the Riau Islands and Kelantan Malaysia, also in Surathani Thailand.

Other evolved sheath form includes Sarung Keris Buah Mancang and Sarung Keris Sari Bulan.

nechesh · 7th July 2005, 03:57 PM

Thanks Marto. What you say about tangguh has been stated numerous times in the past, but it seems to be our very human trait to attempt to put a name and a catagory to everything regardless of our technical ability to do so with accurate certainty. As you say, tangguh of VERY FEW keris are easily identifiable in photographs, and i believe mhm27's keris is no exception. Kingdom styles have a tendency to bleed into one another. Often syles are copied in later kingdoms. Materials are very important in IDs so the weight of the blade in hand is an important factor as is the feel of the pamor, qualities a photograph can never convey. There is also a more esorteric feel to the blade which cannot be grasped through photos alone. Then keris are dressed and redressed and redressed again, so clues beyond the blade itself often yield little valuable info about origin. The process of tangguh is often misused and misunderstood.

nechesh · 7th July 2005, 05:54 PM

I did just want to add that inspite of what i just wrote i don't think there is anything wrong with us making educated guesses at the age of keris. I just think it is important that we recognize that they are just that.

12th June 2005, 04:40 PM	#1
mhm27 Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: singapore Posts: 8	javanese keris bought this 3 years ago but lost info about this keris but can remember that it`s a javanese origin i think.Any info or feedback appreiciate....... Attached Images

5th July 2005, 02:50 PM	#4
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	grammar Keris Jawa, luk 9. Ukiran : wanda Surakarta. Wrangka : Ladrang Branggah Persisiran. Picture of the wood is too blur to determine wood/type of the warangka. Last edited by Alam Shah; 6th July 2005 at 10:13 AM.

6th July 2005, 05:10 PM	#7
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Ladrang sheath comparison. The wrangka can also be from Old Sulawesi. click here for comparison of ladrang sheath.

7th July 2005, 04:24 AM	#11
marto suwignyo Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 52	I feel it is rather difficult to be able to attach any certainty to the tangguh or classification of any keris blade based upon what can be seen in a photograph. All one can see in a photo is an outline, and sometimes, if it is a good photograph, an indication of the blade features. When we attempt to determine the tangguh of a blade we need a lot more information than is available to us from a photograph. It may be a legitimate exercise to propose a tangguh from a photo in the case of some blades, as for instance a Sigaluh blade which is unique in its proportions and was very seldom a subject for later copies, but to affix a Pajajaran tangguh from a photo is something that is quite impossible to do , as even with the blade in the hand, Pajajaran and Mataram Senopaten are often confused, even by people experienced in the application of the parameters which can indicate a tangguh. Pajajaran blades were subject to copy by Gresik, and it is difficult to tell a Gresik copy from an original Pajajaran unless you feel the texture of the blade surface:- Gresik pamor has a greasy feel to it, Pajajaran does not. Also, Pajajaran blades tend to have a tiny gap between the blade core and the pamor, this can often only be seen under magnification. Then we have Tuban-Pajajaran blades, and Pajajaran itself is split into two distinct classifications, one having a blumbangan that is boto adeg (brick standing), one having a blumbangan that is boto rubuh (fallen brick ). Again , some ahli keris maintain that there are in fact three distinct categories of Pajajaran keris, not just two. There are about a dozen indicators that must be considered before we can confidently give a tangguh for a blade, and be able to defend our decision that the blade in question could be of that particular tangguh. An outline from a photograph is simply not enough to go on, especially when there are so many possibilities, as is the case with blades of tangguh Pajajaran. Also, it is wise to bear this in mind:- the word "tangguh" means "estimate". Even if you have twenty ahli keris in agreement that a blade carries the features of a particular tangguh, it is still just an opinion. It can never be graven in stone, unless the provenance of the particular blade is known. Additionally there is no evidence that the tangguh classification that attaches to extremely old blades, such as Sigaluh, Pajajaran, or Jengala is representative of that blade having a point of origin in time that equates to the historic period from which it takes its name. As many ahli keris in Central Jawa will say:- "tangguh ngak sungguh". Roughly, "tangguh is not real". The tangguh system is a good and a necessary system to allow us to classify keris, but it should be used within the context for which it was developed. As for Palembang, there are several styles of blade that can be associated with Palembang, but the one style that we can be certain of as Palembang in origin, and not a blade that has come into Palembang by trade, is the Palembang blade style having the features of a Central Javanese blade, but with variations in material and execution. The Palembang court had an association with Central Javanese courts from the time of Sultan Agung. When we wish to give a tangguh, or a classification to a keris blade, it is always best to very cautious. In the case of the blade in this thread, perhaps the best we can say is that it has shallow waves similar to the waves of a Pajajaran blade. But it also has the steeply angled gonjo that we associate with old Madura blades. Personally, I would not be prepared to attempt to give a classification for this blade unless I held it in my hand, and it was freshly stained. Last edited by marto suwignyo; 7th July 2005 at 04:35 AM.

7th July 2005, 05:28 AM	#13
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	About Warangka Tanggalan - cont'd In the olden days, the warangka tanggalan which started during the Demak Kingdom started to decline after the fall on the kingdom. This sheath form started the warangka gayaman and ladrang. The practice of making the tanggalan form ceased near the end of the Mataram Kartasura era. Although it ceased in Java, the evolved sheath form are still made outside Java. It is known as sarung keris sampir bahari, or sarung keris Bangkinang, or Dua Hari Bulan. The form is still being made in the Riau Islands and Kelantan Malaysia, also in Surathani Thailand. Other evolved sheath form includes Sarung Keris Buah Mancang and Sarung Keris Sari Bulan.

17th June 2005, 10:53 PM	#2
Mans Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: East Java Posts: 137	I think so, that your keris is Javanese origin. The scabbard like a very old style from East Java. Discontinued product for now. This keris seems like from Pajang period (about 16-17th century). You can comparing the characteristic with this one : http://kerisbudi.fotopic.net/c580201.html Congratulation that you bought an old Javanese keris !! Regards, Manshur Hidayat

6th July 2005, 08:44 AM	#5
rahman Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 84	Pak Hidayat Can you pls help identify the dapur for this keris? Is it a sempana as in your website? Discontinued model? Very interesting...

6th July 2005, 05:17 PM	#8
rahman Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 84	Pak Hidayat It's interesting that you say this model has been "discontinued". Any reason why? Maybe the empu emigrated to Palembang? I can't say for sure just how old this keris is, but I have a couple of Palembang blades with similar features -- and I don't think they are that old.

7th July 2005, 03:22 AM	#10
rahman Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 84	Ah! You meant the mranggi... But the wrangka shown could note have been from the 16-17th Century, so someone must still be making it. Perhaps not in East Java but in the northern pesisiran states. Semarang perhaps? Thanks for the photos. I'm attracted to the Sari Bulan wrangka. Is that from Java? It does look like the Sumatran ones but a lot broader.

7th July 2005, 03:57 PM	#14
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Thanks Marto. What you say about tangguh has been stated numerous times in the past, but it seems to be our very human trait to attempt to put a name and a catagory to everything regardless of our technical ability to do so with accurate certainty. As you say, tangguh of VERY FEW keris are easily identifiable in photographs, and i believe mhm27's keris is no exception. Kingdom styles have a tendency to bleed into one another. Often syles are copied in later kingdoms. Materials are very important in IDs so the weight of the blade in hand is an important factor as is the feel of the pamor, qualities a photograph can never convey. There is also a more esorteric feel to the blade which cannot be grasped through photos alone. Then keris are dressed and redressed and redressed again, so clues beyond the blade itself often yield little valuable info about origin. The process of tangguh is often misused and misunderstood.

7th July 2005, 05:54 PM	#15
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I did just want to add that inspite of what i just wrote i don't think there is anything wrong with us making educated guesses at the age of keris. I just think it is important that we recognize that they are just that.