Damascus Saber for appreciation / Sable de Damasco para apreciación

[Fernando K]

This is a saber circa 1870, sold by a Buenos Aires's trader and built by Kirschbaum (stamped with "Casco" or "Yelmo" ) that has a Damascus blade. We would like to know if the damascus is legitimate or a fake. It is noteworthy that in the picture with scrolls the background does not show the damascus. I have seen several damascus imitations in pocket pistols barrels from same period.

Sincerely,
Fernando K


Se trata de un sable circa 1870, vendido por una casa importadora de Buenos Aires construído por Kirschbaum (marca "Casco" o "Yelmo") con hoja con damasco. Querríamos saber si el damasco es legítimo o una imitación. Sobre todo me llama la atención que en el dibujo de las volutas el fondo no muestre el damasco. He visto la imitación en pistolas de bolsillo de la misma época.

Afectuosamente,
Fernando K

[Fernando K]

Hi all:

Please have turned this thread because I hope some of you opinion, is more modest than the subject ........

Affectionately. Fernando K

[spiral]

Lovely German damascus, its Real

Spiral

[fernando]

I wonder why Jim doesn't have a say here ... for one.

[Jim McDougall]

Fernando, thank you for the vote of confidence my friend!
Actually, I believe Spiral is correct and that there was a type of Damascus imitation going on by the latter 19th century. I think in Russia it was called 'bulat', but cant recall offhand (I think its discussed in Figiel, and some of the others). Solingen by the end of the 19th and well into the 20th was heavily supplying Mexico, Central and South America with edged weapons so this extremely handsome example is understandably well represented.
I prefer not to use the term 'fake' for this type of Damascus, as it is an example of European interpretation in thier efforts to produce this elusive and mysterious steel whose secrets were long hidden with the heritage of the Middle and Near East, Central Asia and India.

[Fernando K]

Hola, Jim

Solamente pregunto porque el damasco no se vé en el fondo del dibujo con volutas o "scroll"; tampoco en el "recazo"

Afectuosamente. Fernando K

Hello, Jim

Only ask because the damask not go in the bottom of the drawing with scrolls or "scroll", nor in the "recazo"

Affectionately. Fernando K

[spiral]

As far as I recall Jim Bulat is Russian made wootz? This steel appears laminated to me. Such things were not that unusul in Europe, although not always etched to bring out the pattern I believe.

Fernando K. the damascus pattern is only visible where acid has been used to show the layers in the steel, it would detract from the scrolling etc. if the was overshadowed by the steel pattern, so that was left polished.

Spiral

[Fernando K]

Hola, Spiral:

Si el dibujo del "scroll" es un grabado al ácido, el fondo debería mostrar el dibujo del damasco. Yo no creo que se haya pulido el fondo tan bien, que se haya eliminado el dibujo o patron.

Queda asimismo el asunto del "recazo". Creo que si la hoja era de damasco, se destacaría el dibujo en una pàrte importante.

Tengo el catálogo de un a firma similar - Eichorn - de sables para todas partes del mundo - incluído Estados Unidos y Europa, y no hay un solo ejemplar de damasco.

Afectuosamente. Fernando K

Hello, Spiral:

If the the "scroll" pattern is an etching, the bottom should show the damascus pattern. I do not think the bottom has been polished so much that it removed the effect or pattern.

However the issue of "recazo" remains. I think if the blade were Damascus, the pattern would stand out in an important part.

I have the catalog of a signature similar to - Eichhorn - sabers for all parts of the world - including the United States and Europe, and there is no single damascus example.

Affectionately. Fernando K

[broadaxe]

Nice presentation saber, the steel appears to be legit pattern welded in original (past) etched condition. I've several, mostly can be dated to 1860-1880 era.
Bulat is the russian word for wootz, derived from Farsi - fulad. In its turn probably derived from the Hebrew word for steel plada.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Fernando K

If the the "scroll" pattern is an etching, the bottom should show the damascus pattern. I do not think the bottom has been polished so much that it removed the effect or pattern.

However the issue of "recazo" remains. I think if the blade were Damascus, the pattern would stand out in an important part.

I have the catalog of a signature similar to - Eichhorn - sabers for all parts of the world - including the United States and Europe, and there is no single damascus example.

Affectionately. Fernando K

Thanks Broadaxe for the confirmation re. Bulat etc.

Hello again Fernando,

Ido understand your thoughts, but it is a laminated blade, I can "see" it is, Ive etched many,many blades.

Decorative etches & stamped riccasos can be finnished off without showing the blade structure. This did used to be done in Germany.

But if you wish to belive own thoughts, then please do! our thoughts help govern our lives after all, so we are used to trusting them. { I must admit this forum has finaly after many years also taught me that its pointless {or timewaisting.} to argue facts against peoples beliefs....}

But either way enjoy it, Its an interesting sword!


Best regards,
Spiral

[Fernando K]

Hola a todos:

Humildemente, puedo tener mis propias creencias, pero demando que alguien me explique como la parte decorativa, "scroll", sometida a la accion del ácido, no muestra el patron o diseño del damascus.

Afectuosamente. Fernando K

Hi all:

Humbly, I can have my own beliefs, but request that someone explain to me how the decorative, "scroll", under the action of acid, does not show the damascus pattern or design.

Affectionately. Fernando K

[spiral]

I Am not a German cutler from 1870, but know they could do such thing.

Perhaps One can deep etch the "floral work" to give depth, then lighty polish to leave the "floral etch" but smothing out the steel laminations?

As I say Ive seen such work before, but Cutlers then were very skilled, I am just an amater hobbyist.

I to would like to know how such work was done!..... Perhaps Bernard Levine on Bladeforums would know? or one of the foromites there? several are Germans with great knowledge of there old cutlers.

Spiral

PS. I think it is against forum rules to post in other languages than English ?: Or perhaps Ive misunderstood that? It seems more common now than a few years ago perhaps the rules have changed?

[Emanuel]

Hello,

Nice to see this old German pattern welding.

Spiral, I believe Fernando explained in one of his first posts that he is using a translator to communicate. The Spanish is translated below in English and he is including the original Spanish in case the translation is faulty and to preserve his meaning

Now this patterning was done purely for aesthetic purposes, was it not? By the 1870s Germany was producing large quantities of cast steel if I recall correctly.

Cheers,
Emanuel

[spiral]

Ahh that makes sense the Emmanuel! {Re. the Spanish.}

Decorative? I expect so! More costly? Definatly!

Spiral

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all~ As Spiral was saying...is this not a laminated blade? If so it must have been given the wootz treatment afterwards no? That would explain why it is not damascened on the scrolls. What then is or was the process?
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.