Fijian Club?

Nagawarrior · 29th May 2006, 05:43 PM

I bought this club as an African club. Thats just what I thought it was until recently, when a dealer told me that this is a Ula. Now I'm confused. What is the consensus here?

Tim Simmons · 29th May 2006, 09:46 PM

I do not think it is African. Very nice. Could be from Papua?

IainN · 29th May 2006, 09:48 PM

This is indeed an ula from Fiji. Nice example, often these have carvings around the shaft where it meets the head. Yours looks to be a very workman like example. These are a throwing club.

[image rehosted to save other folks' bandwidth, orig. source here (scroll down): http://www.janeresture.com/oceania_ethnology/fiji.htm]

Mapico1 · 29th May 2006, 11:24 PM

Sorry but this is no Ula but a stirr spoon from Kenya or Tanzania.
I have seen them many times offered on ebay as CLUB?????(with questionmarks because "club" sounds better than "spoon")

Nagawarrior · 30th May 2006, 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mapico1

Sorry but this is no Ula but a stirr spoon from Kenya or Tanzania.
I have seen them many times offered on ebay as CLUB?????(with questionmarks because "club" sounds better than "spoon")

The seller said either a club or food masher/spoon. Ula sure sounded much better. "If wishes were horses then dreamers would ride." You sound pretty sure about the "spoon". The Ula determination came from a dealer that specializes in African items. Thanks you for your insight.

fearn · 30th May 2006, 06:39 AM

Anybody who's been thwacked by someone's kitchen spoon (or a frying pan) knows there's some overlap between kitchen implements and weapons.

Nonetheless, this isn't an ula. The one posted by Louieblades is.

I don't have the reference with me, but there are three different names for the types shown by Iain (the ula is #178 on the right). The ula is a short throwing club supposedly thrown like a knife (so that it rotates end over end) and designed to hit handle first (to concentrate the force). Allegedly. There's a long argument about this on the old Vikingsword forum from around 2003.

My 0.02 cents,

F

drdavid · 30th May 2006, 10:35 AM

As a kitchen implement it looks more like a lemon juicer
DrD

IainN · 30th May 2006, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mapico1

Sorry but this is no Ula but a stirr spoon from Kenya or Tanzania.

I am currently selecting the crow to eat for supper.

Looking carefully at the photos there are few things that should have tipped me off, 1) the texture and patina are consistent with something from a dry dusty climate and 2) the wood looks almost pithy in the one photo of the head, which contrasts with the harder more tightly packed grained woods that ulas seem to usually be made out of. Quick assessments never make for a good i.d.

Nice to know what these things are if they come up frequently on Ebay.

BluErf · 30th May 2006, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fearn

Anybody who's been thwacked by someone's kitchen spoon (or a frying pan) knows there's some overlap between kitchen implements and weapons.

Haha! That's a good one!

A general (and possibly stupid) question about these clubs - looking at the relatively thin shaft on some of these clubs, how hard can one swing them (assuming they hit the target) before they break?

Mapico1 · 30th May 2006, 03:08 PM

Here's the spoon I have in my collection.It was brought back 5 years ago from the Tanzania/Kenya region.

fearn · 30th May 2006, 04:55 PM

Hi BluErf,

I'll be interested for anyone to post measurements. Since I've been making staffs and canes for a while now, and reading about a bunch of clubs, I can give you the "it depends" answer now. Here's what it depends on, so far as I know:

Most weapons of any sort typically have handles less than 2" (5 cm) in diameter, simply because very few humans have a hand that can hold something thicker in a firm grasp. This includes things like sledge hammers and mauls, which can weigh 2-4 kg (5-10 lb) and have wooden handles.

Many clubs, staffs, etc. weigh between 2-5 lbs (1-2 kg, roughly), which, if you think about it, is the weight range of typical swords. I suspect that this is sort of an optimal range for weapons in general, being light enough to wield for an extended time, light enough to move dextrously, yet heavy enough to cause damage.

The basic point is that clubs seem to fall in the range of weights for all weapons, including axes, hammers, swords, spears, and maces. We seldom worry about handle failure in these tools, even though the handles are seldom more than 1" thick.

To give some idea about the relative strengths of woods, a yew longbow 1" wide and 1/2" thick would probably have a draw weight in the 50-100 lb range. a round "bow" that was 1" by 1" would probably have >100 lb draw weight for yew and for many woods. If you think of a club handle as a short, stiff bow, it looks like a 1-1.5" thick handle is thick enough to handle the forces its user would apply to it. Personally, I suspect that a club handle would only fail if there was a defect in the wood, due to rot, insect damage, or cutting across the grain of the wood. However, I would not recommend stress testing a century-old club, since wood does deteriorate with age...

My 0.02 cents,

F

VANDOO · 30th May 2006, 05:41 PM

THROWING CLUBS DON'T NEED A THICK HANDLE AS BEING THROWN DOSEN'T PUT THE STRESS ON THE HANDLE THAT HOLDING IT AND STRIKING WITH IT WOULD. THAT BEING SAID, THE ULA CLUBS FROM FIJI ARE MADE OF A VERY DENSE HARD WOOD THAT IS HEAVIER AND STRONGER THAN LIGHTER WOODS SO PROBABLY WOULDN'T BREAK IF YOU STRUCK WITH IT. THEY WERE USUALLY CARRIED STUCK THRU THE BELT GRIDLE AND SEVERAL WERE OFTEN CARRIED THEY WERE THROWN FIRSTALONG WITH SPEARS. THE WARRIORS THEN CLOSED IN FOR FIGHTING WITH LARGER CLUBS AND SPEARS. I WOULD ASSUME THEY WERE USED IN AMBUSH ATTACKS ALSO AS THAT TYPE OF HUNTING WAS VERY COMMON (THEY WERE CANNIBALS).

THE CLUB PICTURED IN THIS POST HAS A HEAD WITH BLUNT EDGED STRIKING EDGES AND THE WAY IT IS CUT WOULD REDUCE THE WEIGHT OF THE CLUB. THESE TWO FACTORS WOULD REDUCE ITS EFFECTIVENESS AS A WEAPON AND IF IT IS MADE OUT OF LIGHT SOFTER WOOD WOULD ALSO POINT TO IT BEING SOMETHING OTHER THAN A WEAPON. FORTUNATELY WE HAVE A MEMBER WHO HAS AN EXAMPLE AND THE KNOWLEGE TO GIVE US A POSITIVE ID ON THIS ONE.

SO WE CONTINUE TO LEARN!

ariel · 30th May 2006, 06:41 PM

Do you think Martha Stewart could start a new line of kitchen implements?

Mapico1 · 30th May 2006, 07:28 PM

I checked my data and the spoon is GOGO tribe from Central Tanzania.
Ad your service...

fearn · 30th May 2006, 07:57 PM

I dunno Ariel,

Was Martha Stewart convicted of a felony or a misdemeanor? If a felon, she really shouldn't be introducing a line of combat-ready kitchen utensils--she'd get arrested for weapons possession, for one thing.

Thanks Mapico--now my question is, how does one use this "spoon?" In a noncombat situation, I mean

F

Nagawarrior · 31st May 2006, 12:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mapico1

I checked my data and the spoon is GOGO tribe from Central Tanzania.
Ad your service...

Thank you very much Mapico. I really appreciate the help with this one. I might not really want to hear the truth, but it is how we all learn. I hope I'm not alone in learning the "hard" way. Man, was I happy when I was told this was a Ula. Now I just have to look in another direction and find the importance of this object in tribal daily life. I would love to understand how this "spoon" was used. I hope you can share more about it Mapico. Thank you so much again.
Stephen*

Lew · 31st May 2006, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nagawarrior

I would love to understand how this "spoon" was used. I hope you can share more about it Mapico. Thank you so much again.
Stephen*

Well I heard this spoon was used by the wives of the that tribe to club their husbands over their heads when they insulted the wife's cooking or made a nasty remark about their mother inlaw.

Lew

Nagawarrior · 31st May 2006, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

Well I heard this spoon was used by the wives of the that tribe to club their husbands over their heads when they insulted the wife's cooking or made a nasty remark about their mother inlaw.

Lew

Very funny Lew. I'm feeling better about my purchase already. For some reason I'm picturing an African version of the "Honeymooners". Ralph saying "one of these days Alice, straight to the Moon, and Alice saying, " you just try it Ralph and I'll hit you with my spoon-club"!

Mapico1 · 1st June 2006, 12:38 PM

Hi again,latest info on tupperware and other kitchenalia.......
Spoon is used to make butter....spoon pressed in a bowl a little bigger in diameter.The lobs make it possible to let through the butter while pressing.
That's why the spoon smells......like out of date butter.

Nagawarrior · 2nd June 2006, 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mapico1

Hi again,latest info on tupperware and other kitchenalia.......
Spoon is used to make butter....spoon pressed in a bowl a little bigger in diameter.The lobs make it possible to let through the butter while pressing.
That's why the spoon smells......like out of date butter.

I actually tried to smell the spoon Danny. My wife thought I had lost it. I didn't smell anyting, but the spoon is old.
Got any photos of the tribes people to post? Can you recommend a book about these people so I might learn more?
Thanks for all your help. I really appreciate it.
Stephen*

Mapico1 · 2nd June 2006, 12:34 PM

Hi Stephen,
here a book I can recomment,the spoon is NOT in it but many statues,masks,stools,musical instruments,maps,etc.....
Book has 520 pages,German language,cheap(I paid only 30 euros for it 10 years ago)

30th May 2006, 03:08 PM	#10
Mapico1 Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 86	Here's the spoon I have in my collection.It was brought back 5 years ago from the Tanzania/Kenya region. Attached Images

2nd June 2006, 12:34 PM	#21
Mapico1 Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 86	Hi Stephen, here a book I can recomment,the spoon is NOT in it but many statues,masks,stools,musical instruments,maps,etc..... Book has 520 pages,German language,cheap(I paid only 30 euros for it 10 years ago) Attached Images

29th May 2006, 05:43 PM	#1
Nagawarrior Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Inland Empire, Southern California USA Posts: 160	Fijian Club? I bought this club as an African club. Thats just what I thought it was until recently, when a dealer told me that this is a Ula. Now I'm confused. What is the consensus here?

29th May 2006, 09:46 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,807	I do not think it is African. Very nice. Could be from Papua?

29th May 2006, 09:48 PM	#3
IainN Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Canada Posts: 31	This is indeed an ula from Fiji. Nice example, often these have carvings around the shaft where it meets the head. Yours looks to be a very workman like example. These are a throwing club. [image rehosted to save other folks' bandwidth, orig. source here (scroll down): http://www.janeresture.com/oceania_ethnology/fiji.htm]

29th May 2006, 11:24 PM	#4
Mapico1 Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 86	Sorry but this is no Ula but a stirr spoon from Kenya or Tanzania. I have seen them many times offered on ebay as CLUB?????(with questionmarks because "club" sounds better than "spoon")

30th May 2006, 06:39 AM	#6
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Anybody who's been thwacked by someone's kitchen spoon (or a frying pan) knows there's some overlap between kitchen implements and weapons. Nonetheless, this isn't an ula. The one posted by Louieblades is. I don't have the reference with me, but there are three different names for the types shown by Iain (the ula is #178 on the right). The ula is a short throwing club supposedly thrown like a knife (so that it rotates end over end) and designed to hit handle first (to concentrate the force). Allegedly. There's a long argument about this on the old Vikingsword forum from around 2003. My 0.02 cents, F

30th May 2006, 10:35 AM	#7
drdavid Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 371	As a kitchen implement it looks more like a lemon juicer DrD

30th May 2006, 04:55 PM	#11
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi BluErf, I'll be interested for anyone to post measurements. Since I've been making staffs and canes for a while now, and reading about a bunch of clubs, I can give you the "it depends" answer now. Here's what it depends on, so far as I know: Most weapons of any sort typically have handles less than 2" (5 cm) in diameter, simply because very few humans have a hand that can hold something thicker in a firm grasp. This includes things like sledge hammers and mauls, which can weigh 2-4 kg (5-10 lb) and have wooden handles. Many clubs, staffs, etc. weigh between 2-5 lbs (1-2 kg, roughly), which, if you think about it, is the weight range of typical swords. I suspect that this is sort of an optimal range for weapons in general, being light enough to wield for an extended time, light enough to move dextrously, yet heavy enough to cause damage. The basic point is that clubs seem to fall in the range of weights for all weapons, including axes, hammers, swords, spears, and maces. We seldom worry about handle failure in these tools, even though the handles are seldom more than 1" thick. To give some idea about the relative strengths of woods, a yew longbow 1" wide and 1/2" thick would probably have a draw weight in the 50-100 lb range. a round "bow" that was 1" by 1" would probably have >100 lb draw weight for yew and for many woods. If you think of a club handle as a short, stiff bow, it looks like a 1-1.5" thick handle is thick enough to handle the forces its user would apply to it. Personally, I suspect that a club handle would only fail if there was a defect in the wood, due to rot, insect damage, or cutting across the grain of the wood. However, I would not recommend stress testing a century-old club, since wood does deteriorate with age... My 0.02 cents, F

30th May 2006, 05:41 PM	#12
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THROWING CLUBS DON'T NEED A THICK HANDLE AS BEING THROWN DOSEN'T PUT THE STRESS ON THE HANDLE THAT HOLDING IT AND STRIKING WITH IT WOULD. THAT BEING SAID, THE ULA CLUBS FROM FIJI ARE MADE OF A VERY DENSE HARD WOOD THAT IS HEAVIER AND STRONGER THAN LIGHTER WOODS SO PROBABLY WOULDN'T BREAK IF YOU STRUCK WITH IT. THEY WERE USUALLY CARRIED STUCK THRU THE BELT GRIDLE AND SEVERAL WERE OFTEN CARRIED THEY WERE THROWN FIRSTALONG WITH SPEARS. THE WARRIORS THEN CLOSED IN FOR FIGHTING WITH LARGER CLUBS AND SPEARS. I WOULD ASSUME THEY WERE USED IN AMBUSH ATTACKS ALSO AS THAT TYPE OF HUNTING WAS VERY COMMON (THEY WERE CANNIBALS). THE CLUB PICTURED IN THIS POST HAS A HEAD WITH BLUNT EDGED STRIKING EDGES AND THE WAY IT IS CUT WOULD REDUCE THE WEIGHT OF THE CLUB. THESE TWO FACTORS WOULD REDUCE ITS EFFECTIVENESS AS A WEAPON AND IF IT IS MADE OUT OF LIGHT SOFTER WOOD WOULD ALSO POINT TO IT BEING SOMETHING OTHER THAN A WEAPON. FORTUNATELY WE HAVE A MEMBER WHO HAS AN EXAMPLE AND THE KNOWLEGE TO GIVE US A POSITIVE ID ON THIS ONE. SO WE CONTINUE TO LEARN!

30th May 2006, 06:41 PM	#13
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Do you think Martha Stewart could start a new line of kitchen implements?

30th May 2006, 07:28 PM	#14
Mapico1 Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 86	I checked my data and the spoon is GOGO tribe from Central Tanzania. Ad your service...

30th May 2006, 07:57 PM	#15
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	I dunno Ariel, Was Martha Stewart convicted of a felony or a misdemeanor? If a felon, she really shouldn't be introducing a line of combat-ready kitchen utensils--she'd get arrested for weapons possession, for one thing. Thanks Mapico--now my question is, how does one use this "spoon?" In a noncombat situation, I mean F

1st June 2006, 12:38 PM	#19
Mapico1 Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 86	Hi again,latest info on tupperware and other kitchenalia....... Spoon is used to make butter....spoon pressed in a bowl a little bigger in diameter.The lobs make it possible to let through the butter while pressing. That's why the spoon smells......like out of date butter.