Unpretentious Ottoman dagger

[Dom]

Hi Gentlemen
"Unpretentious" because, at my understanding, and in function of the materials employed,
it don't seems to me, very prestigious, but very simple
that dagger has some damages at the hilt, I hope so that either in Istanbul, or Damascus,
I will have an opportunity to give to some professional to refurbish it.

Until now, we are unable to translate the cartouche
concerning the date, it was easy
1278 Hegira either 1861 Gregorian

the type of metal for the scabbard ??
to me, it seems to be like "sheet metal" ??

actually, I still yet not back to my home, also, all my tools and equipments are in a warehouse

the decor may be silver, or low grade of silver, is complete,
excepted, one small circle part, on scabbard top, near the hilt

I should highly appreciated your assistance for
- translation of the cartouche, coze should be Turkish language
(Thanks my Dear Friend Zifir, if you are reading me )
- the "decor" for me is very unusual, does some one of you have already saw a similar one,
and have a pertinent comments about it ??
here below some pics, of the general appearance and in detail, of this dagger


total length: 38,50 cm
blade size: 20,50 cm
total weight : 350 gr
scabbard weight: 100 gr

why weight indications ??
because the blade it's very heavy and in the same time seems to me made in a very poor steel,
no sound resonance when I hurt it against marble, or concrete ...
still has no flexibility, and seems resistant ??

Thanks in anticipation for your assistance

à +

Dom

[Dom]

small up !

no comments

nobody has an opinion ?? strange

it's ugly at a point, that it's better to said nothing

SAY SO ... I know to face the truth, no hurt

à +

Dom

[Atlantia]

Hi Dom,

Ok, 'ole faithful' will have a go

The blade decoration reminds me of the large dagger that Fernando had in the swap forum a while back (he has sold it, so it's not still 'for sale' and so it's ok to talk about)
The decorations on the scabbard and hilt look like applied disks. They also seem at odds with the Ottoman origin and in fact remind me of Japanese Mon/Kamon in style.

An interesting piece, be nice to see it restored.

Best
Gene

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

An interesting piece, be nice to see it restored.

Best
Gene

Hi Gene
I look for, the "Fernando" post, concerning a similar dagger, but unsuccessfully
I am very curious to know his comments about his own dagger,
specially if he sold it,
a good seller has every time very good and pertinent arguments

sure, it will be restored, I purchased it for 2,5 peanuts

as the scabbard is in "metal sheet" I doubt that it was show like that,
may be plated by "tombac" ?? or by ??? or nothing

it's this type of information that I try to collect,
but till now excepted you, and a very good friend by PM,
nobody seems interested by my subject

Thanks to both of you

à +

Dom

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Dom

Hi Gene
I look for, the "Fernando" post, concerning a similar dagger, but unsuccessfully
I am very curious to know his comments about his own dagger,
specially if he sold it,
a good seller has every time very good and pertinent arguments

sure, it will be restored, I purchased it for 2,5 peanuts

as the scabbard is in "metal sheet" I doubt that it was show like that,
may be plated by "tombac" ?? or by ??? or nothing

it's this type of information that I try to collect,
but till now excepted you, and a very good friend by PM,
nobody seems interested by my subject

Thanks to both of you

à +

Dom

Hi Dom,

Hey buddy, you know me! Always ready to jump in with an opinion

Can't find if it was discussed prior to being sold, but this is Nando's one that I thought was similar in the shape and blade decoration......
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12500

Can you post a close-up of the scabbard decoration?

Best
Gene

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Dom,

Hey buddy, you know me! Always ready to jump in with an opinion

Thanks, I saw it, but as far as the scabbard was too far, I was expected an other one

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Can't find if it was discussed prior to being sold, but this is Nando's one that I thought was similar in the shape and blade decoration......
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12500

the period, and style decoration on blade are similar (for style, not for quality ...)

regards

à +

Dom

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Can you post a close-up of the scabbard decoration?

here we are

many thanks for your assistance

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Dom

Thanks, I saw it, but as far as the scabbard was too far, I was expected an other one


the period, and style decoration on blade are similar (for style, not for quality ...)

regards

à +

Dom

here we are

many thanks for your assistance

They are strange Dom.
Do you see what I mean about them looking like Japanese Mon?
(Must be a coincidence)
Best
Gene

[Atlantia]

Hi Dom,

Having looked further am I right in thinking that the base sheet metal is rusty where the disk has fallen off?

These applied disks look like they've been reused and not made for this item.
I would suggest that you could replace the obvious missing ones by redistributing some from the back where they overlap.
So the question is what were they originally?
As I say they reminded me of Mon, and even though thats probobly not really helpful, I can't shake the impression that they may have an oriental origin. Possibly Chinese.
If you do swap some around , it might be interesting to examine the back of one. They look pressed out, but there may be clues.

Best
Gene

[Norman McCormick]

Hi Dom,
Your dagger reminds me of one of mine, see photo. I don't think these were ever intended as weapons more like a piece of masculine adornment like the sgian dhu we Scots wear with the kilt nowadays, the blade being almost secondary to the hilt and scabbard. I noticed on one of your photographs that the scabbard and hilt do not meet exactly when the dagger is sheathed, mine is the same. I think this is evidence of how it was worn, a dagger thrust into a belt/sash at the front of the body would get like this over time from the wearer bending/sitting down etc. Mine although undated is also 19thC. I think it is nice to have everyday items in ones collection as well as the spectacular.
My Regards,
Norman.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

I think it is nice to have everyday items in ones collection as well as the spectacular.

Hi Norman
it seems that our two daggers, have more or less the same origin, although they resemble
be it of dagger of adornment, I want to believe,
the blade did not make me a great impression
apart from the "cartouche" with the date,
it's what decided me to buy,
other reason to purchase it was,
a real resemblance with an other dagger with me, clearly identifiable, as Ottoman/Egyptian ("Mamluk")
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13687
thanks to have share with me your considerations
best regards

à +

Dom

[ALEX]

Whereas Norman's dagger looks more authentic 19th Century or about, Dom's dagger is not quite. Where would one see similar reference? and why compare to something else based on shape alone and disregarding major structural elements?:-) those discs and stamped decorative embelishments look bizzare. Ask yourself: "would they inspire respect and admiration from 19th century Ottoman onlookers?":-) Here are a few similar, I'd call Fantasy Daggers, one very similar and one of the same class.
Dom, you asked for honest opinion, right?:-)

[Dom]

Originally Posted by ALEX

Dom, you asked for honest opinion, right?:-)

Hi Alex
yes, I got it, thanks Alex
but in same time, i saw somewhere, a more or less similar dagger,
referenced as a "dagger's of Ottoman soldier" (I didn't wrote ... Officer ... but soldier)

as said Norman: "I think it is nice to have everyday items in our collection",
I didn't bought it as exceptional item, but just coz was very cheap,
and at my eyes a potential if was refurbished

your comments are absolutely pertinents Alex, thanks again to have answered

à +

Dom

[ALEX]

Dom, the discs are stamped and applied to the metal. In general technique's terms, such method is not something I'd consider authentic. That was used very late in 20th C on some metalware items like ewers, pots, etc. This is why I used the term "fantasy". Also, it looks quite flat in profile, resembling more Iraqi jambiya than Ottoman dagger.
Any other substantiated opinions/comments from others?

[Gavin Nugent]

Not my area of interest at all nor do I wish to enter in to what's new and what's not but I do wish to note, from another cultural sphere, the Italian all brass Romani folders from the 1860s onwards also had applied stamped discs.