Weapon (possibly) and translation please

[kahnjar1]

I have it on good authority that this is/could be a weapon if accurately thrown by an angry wife!!
Anyway to hopefully get a translation of the cartouche by one of our kind Arabic speaking Members, I show this beautiful old Omani coffee pot which has come my way. Height is 30cm (12")
Thanks in advance,
Stu

[AJ1356]

It is a flagon, for water or wine or whatever. the inscription is the name of the maker, work of Rafiq ... can't make out the rest.

[Atlantia]

Hi Stu,

As you say, it's a 'coffee pot' usually known as a 'Dallah' (In Arabic: دلة‎).
Will make a nice addition to your 'theme'. Sit it on a folding tray topped table with some other bits... or a nice Hookah!
Very popular across the Arabian/Islamic world, your's looks to have some age, I'd date it to mid 20thC give or take a little.

[A.alnakkas]

Nice Dallah. Seems to be saying "Shughl Rafeeq Bahs" (work of Rafeeq Bahs)

I know a guy who collects Dallahs, will show it to him maybe he can trace the maker.

[broadaxe]

Traditional coffee-making pot, directly on open fire, still used today in the Bedouin community for ceremonies. Here it is called bakraj, I believe the word derived from turkish.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Dhellah, brass, tinned inside, Late 20th C probably Syrian not Omani.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Dhellah, brass, tinned inside, Late 20th C probably Syrian not Omani.
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Namaste Ibrahiim,

These are commonplace items across the middle east, how (beyond identifying the maker) would you attribute THIS Dallah to Syria and not say: Saudi, Egypt or elsewhere? It doesn't seem to have any of the distinct variations that would pin it?
These came back to the UK in a fairly constant flow after the war up to and into the 1970s (possibly with a small supply of 'gulf expresso' that soldiers, oil workers and tourists had developed a 'taste for' while in that area as these usually look used!). I imagine NZ was the same. By the latter part of the last century, those coming back tended to be 'lesser' examples. Smaller, lighter often more decorative, minus the filled lid etc and not intended for actual use.
Also of course, Stu's seems to have proper 'patina' in the receses that suggests an age of more than a decade or two. Even with coffe stains taken into account
God knows you could repair tarmac with that stuff!

Regards
Gene

[A.alnakkas]

Dallah's have different attributes. The ones traced to Ehsa and Kuwait tend to have a more flat top for example. Reslan Dallah's tend to have 3 (or 2?) lines at the top part but am not exactly an expert. Sending the images to my friend he'll give a solid answer.

And we still use them. Infact, am planning to go get a set (Dallah and finyals + heater etc. You never know when you need coffee xD)

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Dallah's have different attributes. The ones traced to Ehsa and Kuwait tend to have a more flat top for example. Reslan Dallah's tend to have 3 (or 2?) lines at the top part but am not exactly an expert. Sending the images to my friend he'll give a solid answer.

And we still use them. Infact, am planning to go get a set (Dallah and finyals + heater etc. You never know when you need coffee xD)

Hi Lotfy,

Thats what I'm saying, this one doesn't seem to have anything particularly distinctive about it? So why specifically Syria?

[A.alnakkas]

I'll let Ibrahim argue his opinion but again, I am no expert.

There is an Omani set in an antique shop, what I remember is that was more decorated then the Syrian ones. Well, pictures sent to my friend lets see what he says.

[A.alnakkas]

Friend says its Syrian. No idea whats the defining features but tommorow I am visitng him and will try to get some photos of examples from different countries.

Thats ok btw, to find Syrian work so far as Oman because these things were traded for God knows how long :-)

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Friend says its Syrian. No idea whats the defining features but tommorow I am visitng him and will try to get some photos of examples from different countries.

Thats ok btw, to find Syrian work so far as Oman because these things were traded for God knows how long :-)

I'll be interested to know what the defining feature is that distinguishes it as Syrian. Ibrahiim? Where are you

They are decorative things in the right setting.
I don't actually have any Dallah but I do have a nice ewer- aftabe and some other bits and bobs.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Namaste Ibrahiim,

These are commonplace items across the middle east, how (beyond identifying the maker) would you attribute THIS Dallah to Syria and not say: Saudi, Egypt or elsewhere? It doesn't seem to have any of the distinct variations that would pin it?
These came back to the UK in a fairly constant flow after the war up to and into the 1970s (possibly with a small supply of 'gulf expresso' that soldiers, oil workers and tourists had developed a 'taste for' while in that area as these usually look used!). I imagine NZ was the same. By the latter part of the last century, those coming back tended to be 'lesser' examples. Smaller, lighter often more decorative, minus the filled lid etc and not intended for actual use.
Also of course, Stu's seems to have proper 'patina' in the receses that suggests an age of more than a decade or two. Even with coffe stains taken into account
God knows you could repair tarmac with that stuff!

Regards
Gene

Salaams Atlantia ~ I love coffee pots ! There is something very pleasing about the simple shape..and with the long beak spout they take on a character all of their own. My own collection numbers several score. The best ones I ever owned were sent to me by a friend of mine who found them in a famous English souk ! both were signed by the maker in 1912 in Nizwa! Telling the difference is not easy as these days styles are copied all over the place and Pakistani Syrian Yemeni Saudia ... The list goes on ... It is quite difficult to pinpoint. The most difficult engineering is the lid which should be fluted like the body. Original pots are made from one flat sheet of metal be that copper brass or even silver... They are built from the ground up. To protect from verdigris poison (mold that grows on brass) the pots are tinned(tin drenched) sometimes all over inside and out but normally just the inside in the old days this was a Z'tooti ~Gypsi occupation)
Some regional pots have distinct flat tops others more pointed and there is a different more sophisticated shape for a serving pot rather than the pot that goes in the fire to cook up the brew...

Pictures are jumbled but descriptions make obvious..

* Shows regional variation fat tall thin wide etc etc now copied almost everywhere ..
* Syrian pots..3 small brass Pots; new but in the right style and with wrapped handles.
* Omani . 3 Omani Pots. The classic style with swept body and lid..finials to a point. The lid would contain small pebbles to alert the owner that the coffee was being tampered with. The favourite method of poison in the coffee being the major way of eliminating an oponent.
* The original "pot" coffee pot from Oman ~ round bottom red clay sits in the fire embers and is strained of residue with palm leaves stuffed into the top... and sits on its own round seat made of palm leaves/reed.
* Map of souks in the region far and wide and interlinkages.
* Accoutrements to the coffee pot... pan and stirrer, spoons, mortar and pesstle...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I'll be interested to know what the defining feature is that distinguishes it as Syrian. Ibrahiim? Where are you

They are decorative things in the right setting.
I don't actually have any Dallah but I do have a nice ewer- aftabe and some other bits and bobs.

Salaams Atlantia. Im in Oman. One of my main dealers for coffee pot making is in Syria... The styles are remarkably similar across the entire bedouin artefact range.

Ah ~ very nice ewer you show perhaps from the Deccan ~ for washing hands or as a drinking water jug...Very nice. I have some of those... It is interesting a subject from the ethnographic view that these artefacts display similar decoration to weaponry ... etc
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Atlantia ~ I love coffee pots ! There is something very pleasing about the simple shape..and with the long beak spout they take on a character all of their own. My own collection numbers several score. The best ones I ever owned were sent to me by a friend of mine who found them in a famous English souk ! both were signed by the maker in 1912 in Nizwa! Telling the difference is not easy as these days styles are copied all over the place and Pakistani Syrian Yemeni Saudia ... The list goes on ... It is quite difficult to pinpoint. The most difficult engineering is the lid which should be fluted like the body. Original pots are made from one flat sheet of metal be that copper brass or even silver... They are built from the ground up. To protect from verdigris poison (mold that grows on brass) the pots are tinned(tin drenched) sometimes all over inside and out but normally just the inside in the old days this was a Z'tooti ~Gypsi occupation)
Some regional pots have distinct flat tops others more pointed and there is a different more sophisticated shape for a serving pot rather than the pot that goes in the fire to cook up the brew... I will drum up a picture.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Namaste Ibrahiim,

I'm familiar with the construction techniques, but what puzzles me is why this one is Syrian? It seems completely 'standard' in form to me. I've seen this type claimed as 'prizes' of travels to other countries and although as Lotfy rightly points out these are widely 'travelled' it would be interesting to pin it's specific regional 'attributes' for future reference.
I must admit I've had 'some' over the years but none at the moment. I like them, but space is limited!

I have a few Syrian and Egyptian pieces which being similar in style of decoration go well together. I like even the small simple items like this cup:

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Atlantia. Im in Oman. One of my main dealers for coffee pot making is in Syria... The styles are remarkably similar across the entire bedouin artefact range.

Ah ~ very nice ewer you show perhaps from the Deccan ~ for washing hands or as a drinking water jug...Very nice. I have some of those... It is interesting a subject from the ethnographic view that these artefacts display similar decoration to weaponry ... etc
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

LOL, I think the current term used for the origin of this type of Ewer by the big auction houses is often: 'India or Greater Iran'
Nicely vague!
With mine being an overpolished but good antique example.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Atlantia ~ I love coffee pots ! There is something very pleasing about the simple shape..and with the long beak spout they take on a character all of their own. My own collection numbers several score. The best ones I ever owned were sent to me by a friend of mine who found them in a famous English souk ! both were signed by the maker in 1912 in Nizwa! Telling the difference is not easy as these days styles are copied all over the place and Pakistani Syrian Yemeni Saudia ... The list goes on ... It is quite difficult to pinpoint. The most difficult engineering is the lid which should be fluted like the body. Original pots are made from one flat sheet of metal be that copper brass or even silver... They are built from the ground up. To protect from verdigris poison (mold that grows on brass) the pots are tinned(tin drenched) sometimes all over inside and out but normally just the inside in the old days this was a Z'tooti ~Gypsi occupation)
Some regional pots have distinct flat tops others more pointed and there is a different more sophisticated shape for a serving pot rather than the pot that goes in the fire to cook up the brew...

Pictures are jumbled but descriptions make obvious..

* Shows regional variation fat tall thin wide etc etc now copied almost everywhere ..
* Syrian pots..3 small brass Pots; new but in the right style and with wrapped handles.
* Omani . 3 Omani Pots. The classic style with swept body and lid..finials to a point. The lid would contain small pebbles to alert the owner that the coffee was being tampered with. The favourite method of poison in the coffee being the major way of eliminating an oponent.
* The original "pot" coffee pot from Oman ~ round bottom red clay sits in the fire embers and is strained of residue with palm leaves stuffed into the top... and sits on its own round seat made of palm leaves/reed.
* Map of souks in the region far and wide and interlinkages.
* Accoutrements to the coffee pot... pan and stirrer, spoons, mortar and pesstle...

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hmmm, So is the covered spout on this shape usually indicative of Syria? What about Saudi?


You do have a few?
You could start a fountain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Namaste Ibrahiim,

I'm familiar with the construction techniques, but what puzzles me is why this one is Syrian? It seems completely 'standard' in form to me. I've seen this type claimed as 'prizes' of travels to other countries and although as Lotfy rightly points out these are widely 'travelled' it would be interesting to pin it's specific regional 'attributes' for future reference.
I must admit I've had 'some' over the years but none at the moment. I like them, but space is limited!

I have a few Syrian and Egyptian pieces which being similar in style of decoration go well together. I like even the small simple items like this cup:

Salaams Atlantia ~The cup is nice. I think this is a prayer cup reflecting the religious incantations inscribed about the vessel into the water in the cup... and thus into the person drinking it.

When deciding where a pot may or may not be from (bearing in mind that variations are made in several countries i.e. copied styles ) I start by ruling out countries where I know that style is not knocked out~ That narrows the field and with the piece in question I was down to either Syria or Pakistan with a possibility of Saudia. Thats about it ... Not a rocket science and a bit vague but thats the way it is with coffee pots...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

LOL, I think the current term used for the origin of this type of Ewer by the big auction houses is often: 'India or Greater Iran'
Nicely vague!
With mine being an overpolished but good antique example.

Salaams ~ Indeed they have invented a sort of "antiquity woffle" to describe such items. It is as complex as swords! The Afghans call them aftawar and the others call them Ewers ... a posh name for a water jug. Michael Backman has some nice examples. I have ewers going back to the 12 th Century ~ Love em all !!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Atlantia ~The cup is nice. I think this is a prayer cup reflecting the religious incantations inscribed about the vessel into the water in the cup... and thus into the person drinking it.

When deciding where a pot may or may not be from (bearing in mind that variations are made in several countries i.e. copied styles ) I start by ruling out countries where I know that style is not knocked out~ That narrows the field and with the piece in question I was down to either Syria or Pakistan with a possibility of Saudia. Thats about it ... Not a rocket science and a bit vague but thats the way it is with coffee pots...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Namaste as always

Well, that's it exactly, I'd have plumped for Saudi myself (if pushed). I must admit I hadn't considered Pakistan. Hmm, food for thought, thanks Ibrahiim.
Glad you like the cup, sometimes these small pieces have a 'presence' that belies their diminutive size or lack of embellishments.

Best
Gene

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Nice Dallah. Seems to be saying "Shughl Rafeeq Bahs" (work of Rafeeq Bahs)

I know a guy who collects Dallahs, will show it to him maybe he can trace the maker.

Thanks for the translation Lofty. You seem at least to be able to stick to the original intention of this thread. This pot was bought in the Matrah souk in the early 1970s.
IBRAHIIM. You say that your main source of coffee pots is mainly Syria, so how it it that you advertise them as Omani??

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Thanks for the translation Lofty. You seem at least to be able to stick to the original intention of this thread. This pot was bought in the Matrah souk in the early 1970s.
IBRAHIIM. You say that your main source of coffee pots is mainly Syria, so how it it that you advertise them as Omani??

My Apologies for diverting your thread Stu,
I did 'circle' the point though

[David]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

My Apologies for diverting your thread Stu,
I did 'circle' the point though

If i may, i'd like to point out that you are ALL waaaaay off topic here. I'd hate to see this forum become the Antique Road Show. We are an ethnographic weapons forum after all.

[Dom]

Hi every body
here below some "home equipment's" from bedouins of Arabia
in Arabic countries, a formal rule, is; how to welcome the visitors
- coffee and tea
- incense

- the coffee is green, mixed with few cardamom, it's a "must"
- to prepare the coffee, coffee beans must be crushed in a "mihbaj" (mortar)
- nevertheless the coffee seeds have to have been roasted lightly, in a round pan, and stirred with a long spoon
- the copper coffee pots are in permanence in a "Doowah" (traditional Arabian charcoal set)
- incense burner, as mark of respect due to the guest, the ceremony of "incense" must be done
it's just a part, otherwise the list of items, could be long

in pictures;
- coffee-pots from Saudi, one still has some straps in goat skin, around the handle, to prevent the heat
as far as my Saudi's fellow told me, the tall one, it's from Mecca, the short from Medina ... I just repeat what was told me ...!!
- "Doowah", in heavy wood carved, used as a mortar with pestle, to crash the coffee seeds
- incense burner, for the; boukhour (incense) "mohr" (myrtle), the sental wood, and other fragrances

I added some drawn to give an idea; for what was useful those equipments

à +

Dom

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Atlantia ~The cup is nice. I think this is a prayer cup reflecting the religious incantations inscribed about the vessel into the water in the cup... and thus into the person drinking it.

Aleikum Salam Ibrahiim
it's not a "prayer cup" called in Arabic "tasset el kha'da" or "tasset el rhaba",
either "Islamic talismanic bowl" or "medicine bowl"
it's my specialty, I have a not too bad knowledge about those particular items
the main thing to identify it
- must have engraving inside the bowl, and may be outside
- engraving must contain Surat (or part) "Ayat al-Kursî"
- the oldest and rear one, have the Salomon seal, on the middle
after, there is a long speech possible about it, but it will bother everybody,
it's a field of few more or less .... crazy for

best regards

à +

Dom

[Jim McDougall]

Unbelievable!!!! I almost brought up something on edged weapon blade marks but was afraid I might be too far off topic.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Dom

Aleikum Salam Ibrahiim
it's not a "prayer cup" called in Arabic "tasset el kha'da" or "tasset el rhaba",
either "Islamic talismanic bowl" or "medicine bowl"
it's my specialty, I have a not too bad knowledge about those particular items
the main thing to identify it
- must have engraving inside the bowl, and may be outside
- engraving must contain Surat (or part) "Ayat al-Kursî"
- the oldest and rear one, have the Salomon seal, on the middle
after, there is a long speech possible about it, but it will bother everybody,
it's a field of few more or less .... crazy for

best regards

à +

Dom

Salaams Dom ~ Great collection. I have had a few of those through my hands and retain 3 in my private collection... I consider these and marks/decorations on coffee pots pottery and other artefacts all linked to ethnographic swords etc etc.. They exist together. Great pictures of Bedouin etc I have the same book Syria full of great artefacts.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

Thanks for the translation Lofty. You seem at least to be able to stick to the original intention of this thread. This pot was bought in the Matrah souk in the early 1970s.
IBRAHIIM. You say that your main source of coffee pots is mainly Syria, so how it it that you advertise them as Omani??

Salaams kahnjar1 ~I cannot speak of commercial issues on this forum related to my private business, however, just to set the line straight I deal with coffee pots from the entire Arabian region... and that includes Syria whilst the majority of my coffee pots(about 150 of them) are Omani.

On the point of your purchase you must realise that sometimes even in Oman (and especially Mutrah Souk which is 80% infilitrated by outsiders including Thai, Indian, Pakistani, Syrian, ...China and everywhere) you may get taken.

However your line of text is somewhat puzzling if not a little rude, therefor, in conclusion, and while protesting complete submission to the learned on all matters connected with Oriental lore, I take my stand against the merely untravelled critic in the words of the excellent Arabic proverb, which says;
"The off fore-foot of my donkey stands upon the centre of the earth. If you don't believe me, go and measure for yourself."

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note; For those that think this is not an ethnographic weapon ~ This is one of the oldest weapons of the assassin... Poison applied to a sheikhs coffee was probably the most common way of disposing ....thus the reason for the stones in the lid. The rattle of stone on metal is a most unusual sound in the desert and proved to be a reliable alarm...in addition the head slave of the Sheikh was solely responsible for the coffee as the most trusted of his men. Early form of biological and chemical warfare !

[Richard G]

As we seem to have established that coffee pots are really ethnographic weapons for bashing or poisoning I'm hoping I might slip this one by before David decides otherwise.
Can anyone translate this mark please?
It was bought in Qatar in the early 70's. Doha was a small place then, and I know one of the many things they didn't do was make coffee pots.
Many thanks
Richard

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Dom

Aleikum Salam Ibrahiim
it's not a "prayer cup" called in Arabic "tasset el kha'da" or "tasset el rhaba",
either "Islamic talismanic bowl" or "medicine bowl"
it's my specialty, I have a not too bad knowledge about those particular items
the main thing to identify it
- must have engraving inside the bowl, and may be outside
- engraving must contain Surat (or part) "Ayat al-Kursî"
- the oldest and rear one, have the Salomon seal, on the middle
after, there is a long speech possible about it, but it will bother everybody,
it's a field of few more or less .... crazy for

best regards

à +

Dom

My Syrian Cup: wine cup of better than usual quality engraving. 19thC