Damascus Kaskara

DaveS · 15th December 2013, 10:11 PM

Here is a damascus kaskara for viewing. The blade is layered damascus
with what is left of three fullers, 34 inches long, 40 inches overall with a
silver handle. Some of the inscription on the blade is in Latin. I tried my best
to photograph these and the figures, but i don't think they came out too
clearly. The scabbard is in absolutely pristine condition with all the goodies.
Any ideas as to age or origin. I also have another damascus kaskara
with a single wide fuller down the entire length of the blade. These kaskara
blades must be rare, as these are the only two that i've ever seen......Dave.

A.alnakkas · 15th December 2013, 10:30 PM

a fine piece! though I have a feeling that this was not meant to be etched.

DaveS · 16th December 2013, 01:25 AM

A.alnakkas: This is the way it was when i accquired it, already etched.
I would think that the smith would want the blade etched to show
his skill. Just a thought.........Dave.

kino · 16th December 2013, 01:38 AM

That's nice Dave!
Is it a European blade?
I have seen pattern welded European swords, one being a German Naval sword.

DaveS · 16th December 2013, 04:15 AM

Hi Albert: Yes, there is no doubt in my mind that it is a european blade. I
think it is a much older blade also, because i would think that the
mass produced ones made later for export would not be layered. It
would be too time consuming. You can see that the three narrow
fullers are almost washed out due to many years of cleaning and
maintainence............Dave.
P.S......Say hi to Bonny

Jim McDougall · 16th December 2013, 05:20 AM

Now here is an anomaly! The blade profile is very much as seen in many native produced blades for kaskara, but I cannot think of ever seeing any which were 'Damascus'. I'm sure those here with metallurgical expertise might give better account of this case, but I do not believe this is a European blade. While as noted there may have been instances of pattern welded blades in European context they are not among the 'trade blades' which entered the North African sphere.

The mounts appear to be of modern 'Kasallawi' style which are produced in this area of Sudan from around 1960s as I understand (Reed, 1987) and often associated with Darfur. These blades were of course remounted many times over generations so using them to assess the blade age is often counterproductive.

What is most curious are the engraved intaglio and angelic figure devices on the blade which are typically regarded as in the "Caissagnard' style and usually found on French blades on court swords, smallswords and hangers of mid to end of 18th century. As this type blade, and certainly not pattern welded or damascened was not in use in European swords at this time nor later it would seem that perhaps these engravings were copied on this blade by a quite skilled artisan in native trade entrepots.

Just my thoughts and as always very much look forward to other views.

DaveS · 16th December 2013, 06:57 AM

Jim: I have some kaskaras with native made blades and none are of the
same quality as this one. Has anyone on the forum seen a damascus
blade that was done by a North-African smith? The North-African swords
swords i have seen and the ones i own don't exhibit any damascus at all.
It's hard to tell in the pictures, but the layer-welded pattern is of
very high quality, almost similar to a couple of straight bladed Indian
swords that i have. Could this blade be a trade blade from the Indian
market, and the markings be put on locally?.........Dave.

Jim McDougall · 16th December 2013, 06:47 PM

That is an interesting question Dave, and actually India did play a part in some degree in weapons and blades which entered the Red Sea trade and I believe came into the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan and environs through various entrepots . However, in these cases the blades were typically European which had filtered through their trade routes as far as I have understood.

It must be remembered that these type broadsword blades did not correspond to any weapon form used in India, and India did not produce blades for export, again as far as I have known. It does seen that other anomalies such as backsword blades, European cavalry types, have occasionally appeared on kaskara, a match which does see to strongly suggest India as these kinds of blades occur on firangi's.

Conversely, I have seen kaskara type blades on Indian pata, again, usually European types (three center fullers) and by the same token, North African smiths did not produce for export.

You say you have two of these Damascus blades! That may be key to further research on these blades and it would be excellent if you could get some better images (though what you have furnished is good). If you could get the two fully described as far as fullering etc.and dimensions (again, as you have already nicely done on this one).

I would offer this, I have seen another curiosity, which is a short saber and mounted in a brass Ottoman style hilt with deeply embossed lozenge pattern
crosshatch overall. The guard is with Ottoman style crossguard but with distinctly 'kaskara' form langet. It is mounted in the Sudanese style with flared tip scabbard . Most importantly, the steel in the blade I believe was referred to as something termed 'Turkish beyez(?) ' and was some type of patterned steel . If there were Ottoman smiths producing such hybrid items, probably during the 'Condominium' , where French as well as of course the British were occupiers post Omdurman, it would seem an ideal context for such a blade. Further, the application of these French occult oriented images would seem more plausibly situated.

I hope we will see Chris and Iain join in here as their concentrated and advanced studies and research on these arms may have better answers.
In any case, than you so much for posting this, and the opportunity to look deeper into this unusual example.

Edster · 16th December 2013, 08:36 PM

Dave,

Very interesting kaskara. I can't comment on the blade material, but can offer some observations. The cross-guard is flared, and likely at least early-mid 20th century. The scabbard, though very high quality is likely a more modern addition since it shows almost no use. The bulbous profile is not as rounded as seen in the east. The tip and the band at the scabbard opening are likely silver, but appear relatively plain and not in keeping with the overall quality of the scabbard. Also, the two "flaps" are five-sided as opposed to the normally seen triangular ones common on Eastern Sudan examples. The engravings are similar to those described by Reed (Attached for reference). Also, the angel has wings and breasts, not likely to be of Muslim origin, but as Jim suggests perhaps French occult. Can you translate the Latin text?

My guess its origins are Western Sudan, Dar Fur or maybe Chad.

Ed

David R · 16th December 2013, 11:37 PM

A lot of older European blades are made out of "Shear Steel" a forged and folded steel that was not intended to be etched, but shows a watered pattern on those occasions when it is. It is possibly one of these.

DaveS · 17th December 2013, 03:31 AM

David R: I've heard of shear steel but don't know what it would like in a
sword blade that has been etched. I can tell you that this blade is
a layer-weld that was made to be etched and seen. I know it is
hard to tell by the quality of these pictures, but once the blade is
in hand and one can get a first hand look, it is very apparent that
this was a pattern that was brought out so it could be appreciated
by it's owner.
On the other hand i'm going to post pictures of the other kaskara
that has a pattern that looks like a layer weld, but i can't be 100
percent positive that it is damascus. Maybe it is "shear steel". It
almost reminds me a little of Syrian wootz (Sham). It has a little
shimmery look to it like sham, but of course it's not sham. Darn!!!
wish it was.............Dave

Iain · 17th December 2013, 02:45 PM

Regarding shear, Richard Furrer's site has some useful video content regarding the process.

http://www.doorcountyforgeworks.com/Steel_Making.html

As does this thread.
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...r-Steel-Making

Richard is a member here, so if he's inclined to share an opinion I would hope he spots these two kaskara threads.

Emanuel · 17th December 2013, 10:53 PM

Hello,

Nice kaskara. The blade is not made from shear steel but purposely pattern welded. Here are two links to 19th century German sabres with "damascus" blades. Seems to have been a fashion at the time.

http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15333
http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12784

Emanuel

DaveS · 17th December 2013, 11:55 PM

Emanuel: Thank you for the links. This clears up some questions that i had.
For sure i knew it was a true layer-weld on this kaskara and the other
one that i posted. I just didn't know where these blades would have
been made. Thanks again........Dave.

15th December 2013, 10:11 PM	#1
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Damascus Kaskara Here is a damascus kaskara for viewing. The blade is layered damascus with what is left of three fullers, 34 inches long, 40 inches overall with a silver handle. Some of the inscription on the blade is in Latin. I tried my best to photograph these and the figures, but i don't think they came out too clearly. The scabbard is in absolutely pristine condition with all the goodies. Any ideas as to age or origin. I also have another damascus kaskara with a single wide fuller down the entire length of the blade. These kaskara blades must be rare, as these are the only two that i've ever seen......Dave. Attached Images

16th December 2013, 01:25 AM	#3
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Damascus Kaskara A.alnakkas: This is the way it was when i accquired it, already etched. I would think that the smith would want the blade etched to show his skill. Just a thought.........Dave.

16th December 2013, 04:15 AM	#5
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Damascus Kaskara Hi Albert: Yes, there is no doubt in my mind that it is a european blade. I think it is a much older blade also, because i would think that the mass produced ones made later for export would not be layered. It would be too time consuming. You can see that the three narrow fullers are almost washed out due to many years of cleaning and maintainence............Dave. P.S......Say hi to Bonny

16th December 2013, 06:57 AM	#7
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Damascus Kaskara Jim: I have some kaskaras with native made blades and none are of the same quality as this one. Has anyone on the forum seen a damascus blade that was done by a North-African smith? The North-African swords swords i have seen and the ones i own don't exhibit any damascus at all. It's hard to tell in the pictures, but the layer-welded pattern is of very high quality, almost similar to a couple of straight bladed Indian swords that i have. Could this blade be a trade blade from the Indian market, and the markings be put on locally?.........Dave.

17th December 2013, 03:31 AM	#11
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Damascus Kaskara David R: I've heard of shear steel but don't know what it would like in a sword blade that has been etched. I can tell you that this blade is a layer-weld that was made to be etched and seen. I know it is hard to tell by the quality of these pictures, but once the blade is in hand and one can get a first hand look, it is very apparent that this was a pattern that was brought out so it could be appreciated by it's owner. On the other hand i'm going to post pictures of the other kaskara that has a pattern that looks like a layer weld, but i can't be 100 percent positive that it is damascus. Maybe it is "shear steel". It almost reminds me a little of Syrian wootz (Sham). It has a little shimmery look to it like sham, but of course it's not sham. Darn!!! wish it was.............Dave

15th December 2013, 10:30 PM	#2
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	a fine piece! though I have a feeling that this was not meant to be etched.

16th December 2013, 01:38 AM	#4
kino Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,002	That's nice Dave! Is it a European blade? I have seen pattern welded European swords, one being a German Naval sword.

16th December 2013, 05:20 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	Now here is an anomaly! The blade profile is very much as seen in many native produced blades for kaskara, but I cannot think of ever seeing any which were 'Damascus'. I'm sure those here with metallurgical expertise might give better account of this case, but I do not believe this is a European blade. While as noted there may have been instances of pattern welded blades in European context they are not among the 'trade blades' which entered the North African sphere. The mounts appear to be of modern 'Kasallawi' style which are produced in this area of Sudan from around 1960s as I understand (Reed, 1987) and often associated with Darfur. These blades were of course remounted many times over generations so using them to assess the blade age is often counterproductive. What is most curious are the engraved intaglio and angelic figure devices on the blade which are typically regarded as in the "Caissagnard' style and usually found on French blades on court swords, smallswords and hangers of mid to end of 18th century. As this type blade, and certainly not pattern welded or damascened was not in use in European swords at this time nor later it would seem that perhaps these engravings were copied on this blade by a quite skilled artisan in native trade entrepots. Just my thoughts and as always very much look forward to other views.

16th December 2013, 06:47 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,945	That is an interesting question Dave, and actually India did play a part in some degree in weapons and blades which entered the Red Sea trade and I believe came into the Anglo-Egyptian Sudan and environs through various entrepots . However, in these cases the blades were typically European which had filtered through their trade routes as far as I have understood. It must be remembered that these type broadsword blades did not correspond to any weapon form used in India, and India did not produce blades for export, again as far as I have known. It does seen that other anomalies such as backsword blades, European cavalry types, have occasionally appeared on kaskara, a match which does see to strongly suggest India as these kinds of blades occur on firangi's. Conversely, I have seen kaskara type blades on Indian pata, again, usually European types (three center fullers) and by the same token, North African smiths did not produce for export. You say you have two of these Damascus blades! That may be key to further research on these blades and it would be excellent if you could get some better images (though what you have furnished is good). If you could get the two fully described as far as fullering etc.and dimensions (again, as you have already nicely done on this one). I would offer this, I have seen another curiosity, which is a short saber and mounted in a brass Ottoman style hilt with deeply embossed lozenge pattern crosshatch overall. The guard is with Ottoman style crossguard but with distinctly 'kaskara' form langet. It is mounted in the Sudanese style with flared tip scabbard . Most importantly, the steel in the blade I believe was referred to as something termed 'Turkish beyez(?) ' and was some type of patterned steel . If there were Ottoman smiths producing such hybrid items, probably during the 'Condominium' , where French as well as of course the British were occupiers post Omdurman, it would seem an ideal context for such a blade. Further, the application of these French occult oriented images would seem more plausibly situated. I hope we will see Chris and Iain join in here as their concentrated and advanced studies and research on these arms may have better answers. In any case, than you so much for posting this, and the opportunity to look deeper into this unusual example.

16th December 2013, 11:37 PM	#10
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	A lot of older European blades are made out of "Shear Steel" a forged and folded steel that was not intended to be etched, but shows a watered pattern on those occasions when it is. It is possibly one of these.

17th December 2013, 02:45 PM	#12
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Regarding shear, Richard Furrer's site has some useful video content regarding the process. http://www.doorcountyforgeworks.com/Steel_Making.html As does this thread. http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...r-Steel-Making Richard is a member here, so if he's inclined to share an opinion I would hope he spots these two kaskara threads.

17th December 2013, 10:53 PM	#13
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, Nice kaskara. The blade is not made from shear steel but purposely pattern welded. Here are two links to 19th century German sabres with "damascus" blades. Seems to have been a fashion at the time. http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15333 http://vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12784 Emanuel

17th December 2013, 11:55 PM	#14
DaveS Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 327	Damascus Kaskara Emanuel: Thank you for the links. This clears up some questions that i had. For sure i knew it was a true layer-weld on this kaskara and the other one that i posted. I just didn't know where these blades would have been made. Thanks again........Dave.