Polish sword blade, what are the symbols?

rand · 25th September 2007, 06:21 AM

This Polish blade has what looks to be nine stars, a sun , a moon, a North Star (?) and a saintly figure (?).

Does anyone know what the symbolism is for these figures?

rand

wolviex · 25th September 2007, 10:51 AM

Hello Rand!

Might be Polish but also might be Hungarian

The saint person is probably Saint Mary of Immaculate Conception, the symbol held (for example) by Polish hussars on their armours from the 17th c., not mention the great religious affection of Poles to Saint Mary from the medieval times up to nowadays. According to the liturgy the one was praying to her to receive support and protection ("and through Her intercession, save us from wordly dangers"). But her Person is very often depicted on Hungarian sabres! Especially in the 18th c.!

BUT I'M NOT SURE IT IS HER. Because The Saint Mary of Immaculate Conception was depicted standing on a thin crescent moon, often surrounded by rays of light. Here I can't see any of these, but it's hard to see very details while the picture is not of the high quality. So maybe it is other Saint woman (?). Please check it if you can see more details in the book, maybe there are any attributes in her hands?.

The sun, moon and the stars are common talismanic symbols used on blades in Europe during 18th c., but usually they were etched or engraved on blades, not inlaid with gold. The meaning of these is not clear to me, you can find some remarks in Edward Wagner's book "Hieb- und Stichwaffen" (the big one printed by Artia in 1966), like the Crescent Moon+The Star = conjuction of moon with Venus; the number of 1,3 or 7 means luck etc.

I think the handle of this sabre could tell us if this is Polish, Hungarian or other country sabre.

Regards!

PS. Some pictures of Saint Mary of IC from Polish hussars armours.

rand · 25th September 2007, 06:31 PM

Wolviex,

Great information, thanks..... This motif on sword stored with previous blade.

rand

wolviex · 25th September 2007, 06:59 PM

Oh yeah! This can indicate this blade as a Polish one.
The person on the second picture seems to be king Sigismundus III Wasa, reigned 1587-1632 (Zygmunt III Waza in Polish). So the sabre is called "Zygmuntowka", after his name. This one is late, 18th century example, while most of them where made at the beginning of his reigns ca. 1587, when he entered the to the Polish throne after the death of king Stefan Batory. Some of the noblemens started to make sabres with the bust of king Batory, as the symbol of mourning, and some, on the contrary started to put Sigismundus on the blade. Of course the tradition survived and even in the 18th c. you can find both kings on the blades (Batory is much more popular), who knows maybe made as fakes

.

On the picture: first one is Batorowka sabre with bust of the King Stefan Batory, and the second one is Zygmuntowka

And what about the handle of this sabre?

Regards
Michal

Jim McDougall · 27th September 2007, 06:53 AM

Hi Rand,
Extremely interesting blade, and as Wolviex notes, unusual to see this motif applied in this particular manner over the fullers. The use of the sun,moon and stars were quite commonly used suggesting cabalistic/talismanic symbolism throughout the 18th century and into the early 19th on European blades. The complexities of the occult often preclude exact interpretation of these symbols, though these were widely used throughout blade making centers that included Solingen as well as locations in Hungary. Poland, Styria and others. It would seem that primarily they implied superior quality of the blades they were on.

It would help to get a closeup of the figure in the center of the blade, and as Wolviex has requested, a full view of the hilt.

Best regards,
Jim

Jim McDougall · 27th September 2007, 10:22 PM

As Wolviex has noted, this motif with highly religious symbolism and the likelihood of the central figure being the Virgin Mary does strongly suggest a Polish blade. It is interesting that in this case, the crescent moon is depicted separately, though it is below her figure, which may concur with the typically maintained image of her standing on the crescent.

In "The Herder Symbol Dictionary" (1978, p.183), it is noted that "...Mary, as the immaculate Virgin, is sometimes represented with a crown of stars on her head". Possibly the field of stars that are seen in the motif may be added in that manner, and it does seem significant that the total number of stars (including the North Star) equals ten. This may suggest the Pythagorean sum of 1+2+3+4, which symbolizes the essence of perfection and harmony.
The sun in the context of this motif may symbolize Christ, and 'the Sun of justice' (op.cit. p.187).

Typically, the 'talismanic' blades of the 18th century maintained various cabalistic symbols and themes which often included the sun, moon and a single star and often presume occult associations. Most of these have more to do with folklore and alchemical or astrological allegory than the dark connotations that are often suggested.

The fullering of the blade seems consistant with 17th and 18th century sabre blades found on Polish and Hungarian examples, and while we are focused on the blade motif, it would be interesting to see the hilt on this.

Jim McDougall · 29th September 2007, 05:41 PM

Rand,
Is this a blade only, or is it mounted in a hilt? Any chance of a hilt photo?

Jim

25th September 2007, 06:21 AM	#1
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Polish sword blade, what are the symbols? This Polish blade has what looks to be nine stars, a sun , a moon, a North Star (?) and a saintly figure (?). Does anyone know what the symbolism is for these figures? rand Attached Images

25th September 2007, 10:51 AM	#2
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Hello Rand! Might be Polish but also might be Hungarian The saint person is probably Saint Mary of Immaculate Conception, the symbol held (for example) by Polish hussars on their armours from the 17th c., not mention the great religious affection of Poles to Saint Mary from the medieval times up to nowadays. According to the liturgy the one was praying to her to receive support and protection ("and through Her intercession, save us from wordly dangers"). But her Person is very often depicted on Hungarian sabres! Especially in the 18th c.! BUT I'M NOT SURE IT IS HER. Because The Saint Mary of Immaculate Conception was depicted standing on a thin crescent moon, often surrounded by rays of light. Here I can't see any of these, but it's hard to see very details while the picture is not of the high quality. So maybe it is other Saint woman (?). Please check it if you can see more details in the book, maybe there are any attributes in her hands?. The sun, moon and the stars are common talismanic symbols used on blades in Europe during 18th c., but usually they were etched or engraved on blades, not inlaid with gold. The meaning of these is not clear to me, you can find some remarks in Edward Wagner's book "Hieb- und Stichwaffen" (the big one printed by Artia in 1966), like the Crescent Moon+The Star = conjuction of moon with Venus; the number of 1,3 or 7 means luck etc. I think the handle of this sabre could tell us if this is Polish, Hungarian or other country sabre. Regards! PS. Some pictures of Saint Mary of IC from Polish hussars armours. Attached Images

25th September 2007, 06:31 PM	#3
rand Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Virginia Posts: 538	Decoration on one of three swords Wolviex, Great information, thanks..... This motif on sword stored with previous blade. rand Attached Images

25th September 2007, 06:59 PM	#4
wolviex Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Poland, Krakow Posts: 418	Oh yeah! This can indicate this blade as a Polish one. The person on the second picture seems to be king Sigismundus III Wasa, reigned 1587-1632 (Zygmunt III Waza in Polish). So the sabre is called "Zygmuntowka", after his name. This one is late, 18th century example, while most of them where made at the beginning of his reigns ca. 1587, when he entered the to the Polish throne after the death of king Stefan Batory. Some of the noblemens started to make sabres with the bust of king Batory, as the symbol of mourning, and some, on the contrary started to put Sigismundus on the blade. Of course the tradition survived and even in the 18th c. you can find both kings on the blades (Batory is much more popular), who knows maybe made as fakes . On the picture: first one is Batorowka sabre with bust of the King Stefan Batory, and the second one is Zygmuntowka And what about the handle of this sabre? Regards Michal Attached Images

27th September 2007, 06:53 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,868	Hi Rand, Extremely interesting blade, and as Wolviex notes, unusual to see this motif applied in this particular manner over the fullers. The use of the sun,moon and stars were quite commonly used suggesting cabalistic/talismanic symbolism throughout the 18th century and into the early 19th on European blades. The complexities of the occult often preclude exact interpretation of these symbols, though these were widely used throughout blade making centers that included Solingen as well as locations in Hungary. Poland, Styria and others. It would seem that primarily they implied superior quality of the blades they were on. It would help to get a closeup of the figure in the center of the blade, and as Wolviex has requested, a full view of the hilt. Best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 27th September 2007 at 10:23 PM.

27th September 2007, 10:22 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,868	As Wolviex has noted, this motif with highly religious symbolism and the likelihood of the central figure being the Virgin Mary does strongly suggest a Polish blade. It is interesting that in this case, the crescent moon is depicted separately, though it is below her figure, which may concur with the typically maintained image of her standing on the crescent. In "The Herder Symbol Dictionary" (1978, p.183), it is noted that "...Mary, as the immaculate Virgin, is sometimes represented with a crown of stars on her head". Possibly the field of stars that are seen in the motif may be added in that manner, and it does seem significant that the total number of stars (including the North Star) equals ten. This may suggest the Pythagorean sum of 1+2+3+4, which symbolizes the essence of perfection and harmony. The sun in the context of this motif may symbolize Christ, and 'the Sun of justice' (op.cit. p.187). Typically, the 'talismanic' blades of the 18th century maintained various cabalistic symbols and themes which often included the sun, moon and a single star and often presume occult associations. Most of these have more to do with folklore and alchemical or astrological allegory than the dark connotations that are often suggested. The fullering of the blade seems consistant with 17th and 18th century sabre blades found on Polish and Hungarian examples, and while we are focused on the blade motif, it would be interesting to see the hilt on this.

29th September 2007, 05:41 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,868	Rand, Is this a blade only, or is it mounted in a hilt? Any chance of a hilt photo? Jim