Panjang for discussion

VVV · 10th August 2006, 10:05 AM

Just discovered this new sub-forum.

I would appreciate your feedback on this Panjang

http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php

Do you think it is from Malaysia or the Sumatran neigbouring coast?
Why is it so rare to see Jawa Demam on Panjang Keris?
What do you think about the greneng of this Keris.

Michael

kai · 11th August 2006, 10:14 PM

That's a nice one, Michael!

I think those "square holes" could be a variation of the classical ron da since one basal corner of them seems to be rounded.

I can't remember seeing ricikan flush with the blade profile in Keris Panjang before. (Usually the greneng protrude from the blade profile like in Keris Bali.)

Regards,
Kai

BluErf · 13th August 2006, 03:55 PM

Typically, we only see tapak kuda hilts on keris panjangs in old photos. Jawa demam hilts on panjangs were very uncommon. I'm not sure if they were put on panjang blades by later dealers or collectors.

One way to look at it is by seeing how a keris panjang is used. The panjang is held with the tip towards the ground, with the fore finger and thumb gripping the bent 'head' of the tapak kuda hilt, and the remaining 3 fingers wrapped round the shaft of the hilt. A jawa demam hilt may be less ergonomic when gripped this way because it was designed for a grip where the thumb and fore finger gripped the picetan of the keris. Of course, there is no stopping a person from gripping a jawa demam hilt placed on a panjang as if it were a tapak kuda hilt, except maybe it would be less comfortable.

The sheath form is simply mindblowing! The maker had great 'air tangan' (literally "hand water", or grasp of flowing aesthetics), and the silver oversheaths are very fine too - notice how confidently the thin but swirling tendrils are executed.

The blade looks like a panjang to me. Bahari refers to the same blade form, but typically less than 12 inches long. 12-16inches would fall into the anak alang range, and anything more than 16 inches would be a panjang in my opinion (though some people would say 18 inches).

I have no hard basis of judging the origin of this panjang, but I would say the hilt is Sumatran, and so is the motif on the silver oversheath. Actually, the hilt looks Minang to me, which could put the keris in Central Sumatra. The blade itself looks more Sumatran than Malay too. Probably a Sumatran panjang, though not sure whether it's North, Central or South.

VVV · 16th August 2006, 07:57 AM

Thanks for your feedback,
I agree with BluErf and I haven't either seen any old picture of a Panjang with a Jawa Demam hilt. But I have seen them on Bahari and Anak Alang.
Actually this one, and my other Panjang with a Jawa Demam,
http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php
are the only ones I have ever seen. But I doubt in these two cases that the dealers, or former collectors, has changed the hilts on those later. This Panjang f.i. comes from the C de Wel collection, who according to my opinion has the best Keris published in the Tammens' trilogy.
I get the feeling that this Keris was more made as a status symbol than actually for use in executions? And probably for someone with his own taste judging by the Greneng?
But that's just my speculations...

I also agree with BluErf's conclusions that the Tapak Kuda is a much more practical hilt for a Keris Penyalang than the Jawa Demam.

Have you noticed that the profile of the blade is slightly arching?

Michael

BluErf · 20th August 2006, 11:25 AM

Yes, panjangs are symbols of authority. Whether they have been used or not is probably secondary to what they represented. It's probably the equivalent of the ceremonial mace used in some European parliament.

I've seen one arching panjang at Adni's a long while back. Cannot remember if that was Malay or Sumatran in origin though.

The greneng is unusual, but its difficult to tell if it's a legitimate style, or a special commission.

VVV · 21st August 2006, 03:29 PM

Thanks BluErf,

I am not 100% sure but I somehow remember to have read somewhere that the slightly arching blade was a Malay phenomena?
That's why I brought up Malaysia as a possibility of origin.

Michael

Gavin Nugent · 1st February 2010, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Typically, we only see tapak kuda hilts on keris panjangs in old photos. Jawa demam hilts on panjangs were very uncommon. I'm not sure if they were put on panjang blades by later dealers or collectors.

One way to look at it is by seeing how a keris panjang is used. The panjang is held with the tip towards the ground, with the fore finger and thumb gripping the bent 'head' of the tapak kuda hilt, and the remaining 3 fingers wrapped round the shaft of the hilt. A jawa demam hilt may be less ergonomic when gripped this way because it was designed for a grip where the thumb and fore finger gripped the picetan of the keris. Of course, there is no stopping a person from gripping a jawa demam hilt placed on a panjang as if it were a tapak kuda hilt, except maybe it would be less comfortable.

The sheath form is simply mindblowing! The maker had great 'air tangan' (literally "hand water", or grasp of flowing aesthetics), and the silver oversheaths are very fine too - notice how confidently the thin but swirling tendrils are executed.

The blade looks like a panjang to me. Bahari refers to the same blade form, but typically less than 12 inches long. 12-16inches would fall into the anak alang range, and anything more than 16 inches would be a panjang in my opinion (though some people would say 18 inches).

I have no hard basis of judging the origin of this panjang, but I would say the hilt is Sumatran, and so is the motif on the silver oversheath. Actually, the hilt looks Minang to me, which could put the keris in Central Sumatra. The blade itself looks more Sumatran than Malay too. Probably a Sumatran panjang, though not sure whether it's North, Central or South.

Whilst studying a couple of keris I have decided to keep I came across this posting.
For those of you who know this collection I have here, it has great provenance and has remained untouched for over 100 years give or take a few years and I believe it was collected on the ground in Sumatra in the 1880/90s and most likely with some local knowledge as there are some rarities in the collection where at first glance in their previous life this would not be noticed.
One Panjang shows the Jawa demam hilt so I think it can be said looking at the consistancy in timber patterns and patina I would suggest that they are for the most part a true marriage and not put togethers, at least these pieces.
Further to this I note the Keris with the Tapak Kuda hilt is one of those borderline mysteries, it has a 17inch blade but prior to measuring it, Michael and Kai have noted, at first glance it appears to be a Anak Alang, but within the scope presented here it could be a Panjang but can still be called a long Anak Alang.
Some images for consideration and a big thank you to Michael and Kai and I am sure both know I am a convert to the beauty, effectivness and quality of these Sumatran weapons.
I look forward to any comments or details that may be relevant since the topic is about 4 years old now and I am sure more mysteries have been solved over this time.

Gav

Alam Shah · 1st February 2010, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by freebooter

Further to this I note the Keris with the Tapak Kuda hilt is one of those borderline mysteries, it has a 17inch blade but prior to measuring it, Michael and Kai have noted, at first glance it appears to be a Anak Alang, but within the scope presented here it could be a Panjang but can still be called a long Anak Alang.

The 1st piece you posted, (with the jawa demam hilt) looks more of a Riau origin while the next piece with the blackish hilt, looks more Northern Peninsular (Kelantan) to me.. based on blade form, blade base features and fittings..

BluErf · 2nd February 2010, 07:46 AM

Agree totally with assessment.

For the Riau panjang, I thought the sampir was better made compared to the hilt (the hilt looks more awkward compared to the flowing lines of the sheath). The rough finishing on the hilt does not allow me to clearly see the grain that appears on the sampir, so not sure it is made from the same piece of wood or tree, or even if it was made by the same craftsman.

The pendoko is unusual, I thought. Not sure what to make of it yet. It fits the hilt nicely for sure, but the form/motif is less common.

10th August 2006, 10:05 AM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Panjang for discussion Just discovered this new sub-forum. I would appreciate your feedback on this Panjang http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php Do you think it is from Malaysia or the Sumatran neigbouring coast? Why is it so rare to see Jawa Demam on Panjang Keris? What do you think about the greneng of this Keris. Michael

11th August 2006, 10:14 PM	#2
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,254	That's a nice one, Michael! I think those "square holes" could be a variation of the classical ron da since one basal corner of them seems to be rounded. I can't remember seeing ricikan flush with the blade profile in Keris Panjang before. (Usually the greneng protrude from the blade profile like in Keris Bali.) Regards, Kai

13th August 2006, 03:55 PM	#3
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Typically, we only see tapak kuda hilts on keris panjangs in old photos. Jawa demam hilts on panjangs were very uncommon. I'm not sure if they were put on panjang blades by later dealers or collectors. One way to look at it is by seeing how a keris panjang is used. The panjang is held with the tip towards the ground, with the fore finger and thumb gripping the bent 'head' of the tapak kuda hilt, and the remaining 3 fingers wrapped round the shaft of the hilt. A jawa demam hilt may be less ergonomic when gripped this way because it was designed for a grip where the thumb and fore finger gripped the picetan of the keris. Of course, there is no stopping a person from gripping a jawa demam hilt placed on a panjang as if it were a tapak kuda hilt, except maybe it would be less comfortable. The sheath form is simply mindblowing! The maker had great 'air tangan' (literally "hand water", or grasp of flowing aesthetics), and the silver oversheaths are very fine too - notice how confidently the thin but swirling tendrils are executed. The blade looks like a panjang to me. Bahari refers to the same blade form, but typically less than 12 inches long. 12-16inches would fall into the anak alang range, and anything more than 16 inches would be a panjang in my opinion (though some people would say 18 inches). I have no hard basis of judging the origin of this panjang, but I would say the hilt is Sumatran, and so is the motif on the silver oversheath. Actually, the hilt looks Minang to me, which could put the keris in Central Sumatra. The blade itself looks more Sumatran than Malay too. Probably a Sumatran panjang, though not sure whether it's North, Central or South.

16th August 2006, 07:57 AM	#4
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks for your feedback, I agree with BluErf and I haven't either seen any old picture of a Panjang with a Jawa Demam hilt. But I have seen them on Bahari and Anak Alang. Actually this one, and my other Panjang with a Jawa Demam, http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...view_album.php are the only ones I have ever seen. But I doubt in these two cases that the dealers, or former collectors, has changed the hilts on those later. This Panjang f.i. comes from the C de Wel collection, who according to my opinion has the best Keris published in the Tammens' trilogy. I get the feeling that this Keris was more made as a status symbol than actually for use in executions? And probably for someone with his own taste judging by the Greneng? But that's just my speculations... I also agree with BluErf's conclusions that the Tapak Kuda is a much more practical hilt for a Keris Penyalang than the Jawa Demam. Have you noticed that the profile of the blade is slightly arching? Michael

20th August 2006, 11:25 AM	#5
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Yes, panjangs are symbols of authority. Whether they have been used or not is probably secondary to what they represented. It's probably the equivalent of the ceremonial mace used in some European parliament. I've seen one arching panjang at Adni's a long while back. Cannot remember if that was Malay or Sumatran in origin though. The greneng is unusual, but its difficult to tell if it's a legitimate style, or a special commission.

21st August 2006, 03:29 PM	#6
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks BluErf, I am not 100% sure but I somehow remember to have read somewhere that the slightly arching blade was a Malay phenomena? That's why I brought up Malaysia as a possibility of origin. Michael

2nd February 2010, 07:46 AM	#9
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Agree totally with assessment. For the Riau panjang, I thought the sampir was better made compared to the hilt (the hilt looks more awkward compared to the flowing lines of the sheath). The rough finishing on the hilt does not allow me to clearly see the grain that appears on the sampir, so not sure it is made from the same piece of wood or tree, or even if it was made by the same craftsman. The pendoko is unusual, I thought. Not sure what to make of it yet. It fits the hilt nicely for sure, but the form/motif is less common.