Pallash for comments

[Perkun]

Hi everyone!
Instead of an introduction

[Andrew]

Welcome to the forum, Adam.

Great display, nice swords. Not my area, but there are some here that will love talking with you! (Wolviex, Radu, Jim, etc. you out there?)

[wolviex]

Welcome, Witaj!

Tell us something about you. You're from Ukraine or from Poland??. Anyway it's good to see someone from the Old Continent on this forum. If you're living in California you may be interested to meet our Transylvanian friend Radu who live there too.

Hussar's armour on your Avatar!

Actually I'm cut off literature while flu attacked me, but tell us more about it. It looks extra long on this photo, or it's just an illusion ?

And the hilt is hussar's one, looks like 2nd half of the 18th century to me for the firts view, but you probably know everything about this, aren't you

[Perkun]

Czesc WOLVIEX,
I am form Poland. I collect swords ever since I sold my record turntable to buy my first one when I was 11.
Over time I switched to strictly Polish bayonets and sabers.
As to the pallash it is an unusual one, the blade alone is 103 cm long, 4 cm wide amd 1 cm thick. Huge and heavy.
Markings are 2 haf moons facing each other on one side of ricasso, letter "T" with a dot above it in a shield on the other side. Markings suggest a 17th century Solingen (?) maker.
I posted it because I am puzzled by this one. I understand such pallashes were in short use in the 17th century but were quickly replaced bt koncerz (estoc).
Is this one one of those early ones?
I had to join this forum as the dialogues are first rate and I don't mind learning.

Hope you get better soon! I have more misterious pieces for you!

[wolviex]

Maybe I was to quick judging about 2nd half of the 18th century. But it doesn't look early 17th century to me either!

The hilt is closed, so it's not earlier than end of 17th century. But it's reminding me those hilts used in Poland with estocs. Anyway without book samples I can't remember for now how exactly those hilts looked like (Radu were are you!), but this one is with extra long quillon - next puzzle or it's just me ??

It would be great to see this markings on the blade - photo or drawing. But the blade doesn't looke like from 17th century for me - but I can be wrong !!, so I won't judge anything for now. 103 cm is not so long for koncerz and is quite long for pallash. Very interesting weapon!!

Let's wait what will others memebers write, and I'll sniff around this pallash next week, when I hope to get better.

Pozdrowienia!

[Perkun]

I am leaning to the late 17th century. I absolutely agree that the handle looks like those on Polish estocs, but I think much bulkier and thicker. Hard to compare never having real estoc example in my hands.
From what I can tell the blade looks hand forged, the markings are heavily stamped. I will add photos later today.
One other curious thing, the tip of the blade is rounded...
I have seen only one other example of such pallash, no fuller to the blade on that one as far as I remember. It was advertised as a "justice sword" and was adorned with engravings, looking much richer than my plain example.

[wolviex]

I think round points in pallashes are sometimes logically substantiated while they were use rather for chopping than for cut.

And maybe you're in possesion of an unknown Polish Hussar's Executioner Pallash

[Conogre]

While European weapons are usually on a "things I've read" basis, the possibility of an executioner's pallash wouldn't seem to be all that great of a stretch, particualrly when viewed in a military context.
As I understand it, swords were proper for gentlemen, officers and nobles with axes, hangiing and such often reserved for the peasants at large?
Mike

[Jim McDougall]

Hello Adam,
Extremely impressive entry post!! Welcome to the forum. Its great to have another addition to the contingent of Eastern European Hussars here !
For many years the arms and armour of Poland, Hungary, Romania and this sector of Europe have been obscure in arms references and considered exotica that could only be admired in museums and esoteric books. It is wonderful to have members from these countries who can share information in discussions on these and especially those who actually have examples in thier collections.
This example you show in the very exciting array of sabres is most intriguing.
The hilt does reflect the general form of Polish sabres from late 17th through 18th centuries in the perpandicular dynamics of the guard, especially the extended straight quillon, and the elongated rectangular langet( similar forms are seen in Zygulski's "Stara Bron" Warsaw, 1982, p.46) The integrated pommel and backstrap also reflect hilts of Polish form in that period.
The hilt on your example is quite heavy and somewhat interpretive, suggesting the latter part of the period described. What is most interesting is of course the blade. I have honestly never seen a blade of this heavy straight form mounted in this type hilt. I am very curious about the rounded tip as well, which as discussed suggests an execution weapon, although these examples would not have required a knuckleguard and it seems they always had simple cross type hilts.
Wolviex: could you possibly say more on these pallasches with rounded blades for chopping action? The use of the estoc (koncerz) for armor piercing thrusts is clear, but the use of such chopping action is puzzling. I have heard of unusually large swords such as two handed forms used to bring down horse and rider...could this have been the purpose of this unusually large sword?

Adam: Could you show closeups of the facing moons and the shield with T and dot? As noted, these do suggest Solingen manufacture. It is well known that Solingen makers typically used established and known markings from other makers and centers. The 'T' of course suggested Toledo, and the only thing thus far I have found with T and dot is Aguirre Hortuna de Nicholas of Toledo, 16th century ("Armourers Markings" Gyngell, p.81). The facing moons are interesting because these showed up as is well known on the takoubas and many kaskaras in North Africa, and it is well known that many if not most trade blades came from Germany. In studying the takouba, it is interesting to note that the native blades often have a rounded tip. Possibly a reflection of German trade blade influence, and these type blades?

Could we see more of the blade, especially the point? What is the length of the blade in inches ( no rulers with cm. out here in Texas !!)

All the best,
Jim

[Perkun]

Hi Jim,
The stats on this supermodel are: blade 40.5 inches long, 0.39 inch thick, 1.57 inches wide.
I attach more photos. The tip of the blade is not only rounded but the roundness is sharpened as well. In the pic. with a ruler please notice the gap where the blade has been worn from usage, Wolviex is right, it has been used as a chopping weapon (sharpened tip makes sense now too).

NOT a good beheading weapon, but very good for chopping from horseback the weight of the blade alone provided for a substantial impact.
NOT a good weapon for a foot soldier to bring down a rider, can't grab it with 2 hands, too heavy to fight with lifting it over your head, too uncontrollable.

Notice the shinier, even area on the crossguard, seems the thumb ring has been cut off at some point.

Conogre: Hanging was for criminals, thought of as a shameful way to go.

[Perkun]

one more

[Perkun]

And a good shot of the "T"

[wolviex]

Jim: I don't know if I can properly explain the "chopping" theory in English. Maybe I'm using not this word properly, so let's call it BREAKING instead. General it is forced with the shape of the blade which is straight - just like with the swords. Chopping/breaking with straight blade is used (I think, if I'm wrong correct me) to break the enemy's armour, to drop off his legs, drop off the horse etc. You take a sword, and instead acrobatics slashes just hit hit hit . With pallasches like this "chopping" seems to be the easiest way of fighting. Hits like this were used also with Hungarian-Polish type sabres (those open hilted with extra long quillons), because of heavy blade, thicken at the point. But generally sabres were used for oblong cut. But cavalry sabres in 18th and 19th centuries were bigger and heavier too. It's easy to smash someone from the horse with something heavy . Sorry if I made more confusion.

Of course I was joking with "Executioner pallasch" theory. There were swords used for it, with much thicker blades than this one.

Another theory: the blade still seems to me later 18th century, but the markings which I didn't recognize yet should tell us more about it. Maybe the blade was refit with older, estoc hilt ?

[Perkun]

As to the markings;
I cracked open Lenkiewicz's "1000 Marks of European Blademakers". I have no other text on the topic so this one will have to do. From the examples shown there seems such "T" has been in use in Spain from 16th to 18th century.
Also used by German makers 16th century to 17th (don't know about later, no examples listed in the text).
Earliest combination of "T" and one halfmoon in Germany seems to belong to Stamm Clemens del Rei Esperdo dated 1580 (pg.66)
Singular but similar halfmoon is attributed to Shul Jean Matheu (Hoffman?) 1600's. (pg.67)
Facing halfmoons are found on a German made sword, maker unknown, dated 1620-1630.
I hope someone has richer literature on the topic than I do and can correct or add on to what I gathered.
What makes me lean toward late 17 cenury (or perhaps very early 18th) is the cut of the mark itself, a full heavy stamp, not a contour as is usually te case in the 18th c. (please corrct me if my belief is mistaken).
I understand Wolviex leaning toward 18th c. based on the balde style, this was my thought exactly when I was purchasing this pallash.
Wolviex, I know you were joking about the executioner stuff.
Next topic should be executioner estocs

[Jim McDougall]

Adam,
Thank you for the excellent photos! Also, good work on checking Lenciewicz. I hadn't checked that resource yet. Actually the various references with markings seem to pretty much repeat each other in degree. Also, I didn't transcribe the name that I cited for the maker correctly ...in any case the main point is that the markings represent earlier Spanish makers, and are as you note deeply stamped. That characteristic, proportionally worn with the stage of age and pitting of the blade, suggests this blade is actually earlier than I had thought, and may well be second half of 17th c. and most probably a Solingen product.

The note of the evidence of a thumbring now removed, also lends credence to the Eastern European provenance for this sword , while I think the hilt, by its general appearance is still 18th century. I think the comparison to estoc hilts is very well placed, and while away from references, it does seem that I have seen this type hilt on them.

Wolviex,
Thank you for explaining more on the 'chopping' term. I see what you mean about that particular dynamic in sword combat. I think chopping is a rather common application in the use of a sword in chaos of close quarters combat, and the early heavy blades would certainly have much of the impact you describe. It is interesting that the early blades you note typically had the widening at the point known as the yelman. This was not only for strength, but to add weight to the impact of the cut.
The extreme length of this blade is consistant with many cavalry blades of Great Britain in the 18th century as well, and I once owned an example of the basket hilt M1788 which had a 40" heavy blade like this. In recalling that sword, it was also a backsword and if I recall correctly, the blade tip was somewhat rounded. It is important to note that during the 18th century, Britain was being considerably influenced by the impressive cavalry tactics and weapons of Eastern Europe. In articles I have read concerning British cavalry swords, the term 'chopping' is used in somewhat derisive manner, alluding to rather inept swordsmanship. I think it is possible , after considering what we have discussed, that description may refer to certain technique that may have been used as described, rather than any inept form.

Getting back to the rounded blade tip ( OK we knew you were kidding about the executioner pallasch!! ...it seems that this feature is found on many sword blades, most typically broadswords, but not characteristically on sabres. As noted, the rounded tip is sharpened, and I believe this is for slashing cuts, where the sharp point of the sabre has obviously limited point of contact...the rounded tip has more area. Returning to British cavalry sabres, the M1796 light cavalry, had a radiused and heavy point termed a 'hatchet point'. This term itself clearly alludes to the 'chopping' action previously described, and possibly learned by the British from Eastern European techniques.

The Tuareg takouba and the Omani kattara are both broadswords that typically have these rounded tips. With both of these swords, it seems the blades have derived from imported trade blades usually from Germany. Although this feature is not predominant in European blades, it does seem significant enough to have influenced the native blades of these regions.
It would be interesting to know more on the sword combat techniques
used with these swords. Unfortunately there are no references as far as I know describing them.

As always, discussing and researching brings new dimension to what was already a fascinating and most unusual Eastern European straight sabre.
While we are aware of the estoc, and its clearly placed use in thrusting, it is apparant that there were also similarly hilted weapons such as this which had use not as clearly apparant. Although historic narratives often note a sword being used, there are seldom specifics describing any details of the sword itself or how it was used.

Best regards,
Jim

[wolviex]

I checked Lenkiewicz's book too, and what I can say there is nothing more than a thought it is probably Solingen product. None of the halfmoons depicted there is identical - but there is a great difficult to match something such popular as this markings. I agree the halfmoon on page 67 is similiar (also p. 28 which is earlier), but I somehow feel that this two halfmoons on your blade can be together entirety mark and we shouldn't seek a singular halfmoon to crack this one - but it's just a feeling.

If it is really 17th century blade, maybe we've got something unusual here, as transitory form of a blade of the turn of the ages!.

But meanwhile I found a book where we can find something similiar. It's old catalog "Macevi. Bodezi. Nozevi" by Marija Sercer published by Povijesni Muzej Hrvatske, where are few pallasches from the turn of the ages - end of 17th and 1st half of the 18th century - similiar to yours. Blades are 4cm (1,57''), 3,5 cm (1,37'') and 3,9 cm (1,53'') thick !. They are a bit shorter: 88,3 cm (34,7''), 85,5 cm (33,6'') and 89,7 cm (35,3 cm) but 10-15 cm is not a difference, is it ? . Unfortunately author didn't give us any information where they were made - I wouldn't be suprised if these are Hungarian products, yours too !!!

Regards