A Borneo Oddity

CharlesS · 8th March 2012, 03:42 PM

I have just picked up this odd Borneo sword that looks to be a marriage of two cultures. The sword is 26in. overall, with a thick, heavy, blade of 20.5in., and is beautifully balanced.

The piece has clearly not been 'monkeyed with'.

What sort of scabbard would this likely have had??

Let me know what you think.

Maurice · 8th March 2012, 06:46 PM

Nice one Charles!

Looks like a slightly different sangkit handle from the Muruts (N-Borneo), but it definately has all features of a sangkit handle (so no doubts about that).

The blade is a Sarawak jimpul like blade.....
But you stated that allready in your post...

How is the blade connected in the handle?

Congratulations with this interesting piece.

Rg,
Maurice

CharlesS · 8th March 2012, 08:48 PM

Hi Maurice, and thanks for your input.

The blade is attached to the hilt with a blackish pitch.

Indianajones · 8th March 2012, 09:23 PM

Hi, this blade is not a version from the Bidayuh or Land-Dayak (S.W Sarawak) which usually have an angle in the blade (at short distance of the grip) and the grip the same form handle but not perforated?!??
I could be wrong here, but thought to bring it up in case I'm wright

Nice quality and unusual piece! Congrats

Maurice · 8th March 2012, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indianajones

Hi, this blade is not a version from the Bidayuh or Land-Dayak (S.W Sarawak) which usually have an angle in the blade (at short distance of the grip) and the grip the same form handle but not perforated?!??
I could be wrong here, but thought to bring it up in case I'm wright

Nice quality and unusual piece! Congrats

A jimpul is an Iban sword, not a landdayak sword.
Hilt is absolutely Murut! And a very interesting one...

Rg,
Maurice

Indianajones · 10th March 2012, 08:28 PM

Yes very sharp of you to state that the Iban (jimpul) is different than Bidayuh or Land-Dayak!

Though jimpuls were also used by Iban from the Saribas and Skrangriver which are near Bidayuh area.

Maurice · 10th March 2012, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indianajones

Yes very sharp of you to state that the Iban (jimpul) is different than Bidayuh or Land-Dayak!

Though jimpuls were also used by Iban from the Saribas and Skrangriver which are near Bidayuh area.

What I sharply meant to say is that the blade of Charles's piece is typically an Iban blade.
A typically Bidayuh blade would be the blade of a buko or pandat, which both are different as Charles's blade.

A.alnakkas · 10th March 2012, 08:47 PM

Lovely sword!

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9177

Is there a relation between those 2 blades? They look very similar!

I always thought the users of these weapons are christian headhunters (dayak?) so what does the Islamic script may suggest?

Sorry for my obvious ignorance on the topic I hope it does not cause any delay!

Maurice · 10th March 2012, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Lovely sword!

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9177

Is there a relation between those 2 blades? They look very similar!

I always thought the users of these weapons are christian headhunters (dayak?) so what does the Islamic script may suggest?

Sorry for my obvious ignorance on the topic I hope it does not cause any delay!

Dayaks practiced headhunting according their "adat". There were all kind of Dayak tribes all with their own languages and believes.
They had their own believe, all things in their surroundings had a soul, and they were very supersticious in all actions they needed to do in daily life.
Later some dayaks were converted by missionaries or moslims.

The islamic script on blades are from those area's, were a lot of Islam converted dayaks live, such as the Banjarmasin/Negara area (fi the beladah belabang).

Maurice · 10th March 2012, 09:14 PM

Charles, does your blade show signs of broken krowits at the base just behind the shoulder where the edge begins?

G. McCormack · 10th March 2012, 11:15 PM

Very graceful Charles, cheers on a lovely blade.

Lew · 10th March 2012, 11:43 PM

Hey Charles

Found this link to a working type Borneo parang with a similar blade style.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=Borneo

Indianajones · 11th March 2012, 08:40 PM

Hi, I have included some pics of the two types of Sarawak blades that the sword resembles. Interesting enough these two; Murut-tribe (curved sword) are located at the top North of Sarawak or actually North-Borneo and the Bidayuh (also called Land-Dayak) tribe located at the oposite South Western corner of Sarawak!
Inbetween is the famous Iban-tribe located which usually use this type of curved blade of Charles' sword.
> I do understand Maurice as the brass fitting of the grip is most seen on Murut swords <pictured below with curved blade n two pronged grip>.
> Though as visible on the first picture (borrowed from Dajak-forumite Dajak) the Bidayuh parang latok also have similar grip fittings and the form of the handle resembles more Charles' sword grip, to my opinion.

And now we wait til someone finds a similar example with the right origins noted; anyone scanned any museumcollections?

Curious what the outcome is . . . .

VVV · 11th March 2012, 09:04 PM

I don't think we will find anything like it in any museum collections, it's one of a kind.
The blade for sure is Iban and resembling a jimpul without (or with a lost crowit). The hilt is more tricky.
I don't think it is close to any of the Bidayuh hilts, but maybe it could be a bit related with the Murut sangkit,
as Maurice suggested (not the pakayun that Indy enclosed). Below are two examples as references.
But still it's not 100 %.
My guess is that, if not Murut, it is a coastal Malay Makara inspired handle.
Maybe a cross cultural combination of an Iban who became Muslim and shifted his handle?

Michael

Maurice · 11th March 2012, 09:07 PM

Hi,

With Murut handle I didn't refer to the pakayun (the one with the two pronged grip).
Besides this so called pakayun they also had the rare parang sangkit. A grip can be found in W. Heins work (I attached an image of the drawing of the sangkit handle).

The problem is that the handles aren't all carved the same, but the shape is still visible. Look at for instance to the image of a pakayun I have in my collection which I attached at the bottom of the row.. It's definately a pakayun, but carved very different as a general pakayun.

I added also some photo's of sangkit handles to show the similarity which I meant to describe in my earlier post. The upper one is Charles's, the second one, and the third one was from Ben (Dajak on the forum).

Kind Regards,
Maurice

Indianajones · 11th March 2012, 09:09 PM

For good comparisson I have posted Charles' swordhandle n the Bidayuh parang latok handles next to eachother in the same position; am I the only one who sees the same build/character of the handles here??

Another detail - as I have been to Northern Sarawak myself I have seen that near the (beginning of) the Baramriver the different shaped parang 'nyabur' is/was mostly used (and not the 'jimpul'), which ends in a point.

Besides; it is always a very good sign to see a very thick blade (near grip) as yours' Charles; I would estimate it therefore before 1900, perhaps as early as 1850.

Dayak-collectors . . . .??

Indianajones · 11th March 2012, 09:16 PM

Wow great results!;

isnt this what these forums are about!

Kind regards, Wouter

VVV · 11th March 2012, 10:10 PM

Maurice, a very good suggestion with the old kind of floral Murut handle that you enclosed.
It's actually hanging on my wall but I didn't think of it based on its more pakayun like brass grip.

Michael

Maurice · 11th March 2012, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VVV

Maurice, a very good suggestion with the old kind of floral Murut handle that you enclosed.
It's actually hanging on my wall but I didn't think of it based on its more pakayun like brass grip.

Michael

Yes that is the one that comes the nearest to the one Charles posted!
At the time Ben did post it in a thread, and didn't know it was on your wall now!
I could have known.
Very interesting piece also with the pakayun grip on this sangkit handle!

Maurice

Maurice · 12th March 2012, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indianajones

Wow great results!;

isnt this what these forums are about!

Kind regards, Wouter

Great results huh Wouter!
But..... what are these forums all about? To learn from collectors and than sew them one ear? (een oor aannaaien?)

It's a shame some of my foreign friendcollectors have been swindled by you Wouter!!

Sorry Charles for messing up your interesting thread!

VVV · 12th March 2012, 09:54 AM

Yes, it seems that the famous "fake or break" con man Wouter K has found this forum. Buyers beware!

Michael

PS A pity the warning thread was removed. But actually he is the only one I can think of after having done over 300 eBay transactions + 100's of other deals worldwide.

Indianajones · 12th March 2012, 12:40 PM

It seems Maurice is angry at me!

Reason? I really dont know you and not what you refer to?! (Am not sure if I'm interested to even hear)(sewing/ears?!?)

Thread focus;
Interesting to see the second type of Murut sword apart from the 'pakayun'(is it called) with the 2pronged handle. Though I personnally still see more resemblance with the Bidayuh parang buko.

>>Hope we all can stay objective here . . . . .Finding out Charles' sword origins is something far off 'personal' for me and would be glad to be proven wrong!
Greetings,

Lew · 12th March 2012, 03:22 PM

Maurice / VVV

These types of personal attacks on the open forum will not be tolerated! So keep it civil.

asomotif · 12th March 2012, 10:45 PM

News travels fast in this small collectors world... i am a bit astonished too

Lookslike this thread is meeting its end.

Indianajones · 13th March 2012, 12:39 PM

If am allowed to reply VERY shortly; 1. have not had a negative feedback on ebay in two years! 2. besides a few fakes (on ebay)I do also sell very good n rare authentic items! Also to satisfied forumites!

Thread; have checked the RMV museumcollection but havent found anything similar. Tropenmuseumcollection online was too slow for my lack of patience.

It does seem that Murut handle ferrules and Bidayuh ferrules are often quite alike.
>> unless I find a very similar sword I will restrain from replying on this thread for obvious reasons.

VVV · 13th March 2012, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Indianajones

It does seem that Murut handle ferrules and Bidayuh ferrules are often quite alike.

No,
quite often the Bidayuh do not have ferrules at all, sometimes they have quite plain.
However, now and then they have the neighboring Melanau people, famous for their silver skills, do their ferrules for them. The examples with the silver ferrules in this thread (Dajak's Latok and my silver sangkit) seems to be Melanau. Actually the latok from Dajak might even be Melanau all together, which means nothing Bidayuh at all. Usually the Melanau latok sadap are much larger than the Bidayuh and have a couple of other tells on how to know which is which (being outside the focus of this thread).

Michael

David · 13th March 2012, 05:56 PM

Gentlemen! If the insinuations and accusations continue to fly on this thread we WILL close it down....which would be unfortunate and certainly unfair to Charles as he seeks info about this very interesting sword.
If anyone has a legitimate complaint against any other member here the proper channel would be to bring that complain, with substantial evidence, privately to the attention of the moderation staff. The airing of dirty laundry will not be tolerated in the open forums. Thank you.

8th March 2012, 03:42 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	A Borneo Oddity I have just picked up this odd Borneo sword that looks to be a marriage of two cultures. The sword is 26in. overall, with a thick, heavy, blade of 20.5in., and is beautifully balanced. The piece has clearly not been 'monkeyed with'. What sort of scabbard would this likely have had?? Let me know what you think. Attached Images

10th March 2012, 09:14 PM	#10
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,342	Charles, does your blade show signs of broken krowits at the base just behind the shoulder where the edge begins? Attached Images

11th March 2012, 08:40 PM	#13
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Hi, I have included some pics of the two types of Sarawak blades that the sword resembles. Interesting enough these two; Murut-tribe (curved sword) are located at the top North of Sarawak or actually North-Borneo and the Bidayuh (also called Land-Dayak) tribe located at the oposite South Western corner of Sarawak! Inbetween is the famous Iban-tribe located which usually use this type of curved blade of Charles' sword. > I do understand Maurice as the brass fitting of the grip is most seen on Murut swords <pictured below with curved blade n two pronged grip>. > Though as visible on the first picture (borrowed from Dajak-forumite Dajak) the Bidayuh parang latok also have similar grip fittings and the form of the handle resembles more Charles' sword grip, to my opinion. And now we wait til someone finds a similar example with the right origins noted; anyone scanned any museumcollections? Curious what the outcome is . . . . Attached Images

11th March 2012, 09:04 PM	#14
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	I don't think we will find anything like it in any museum collections, it's one of a kind. The blade for sure is Iban and resembling a jimpul without (or with a lost crowit). The hilt is more tricky. I don't think it is close to any of the Bidayuh hilts, but maybe it could be a bit related with the Murut sangkit, as Maurice suggested (not the pakayun that Indy enclosed). Below are two examples as references. But still it's not 100 %. My guess is that, if not Murut, it is a coastal Malay Makara inspired handle. Maybe a cross cultural combination of an Iban who became Muslim and shifted his handle? Michael Attached Images

11th March 2012, 09:07 PM	#15
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,342	Hi, With Murut handle I didn't refer to the pakayun (the one with the two pronged grip). Besides this so called pakayun they also had the rare parang sangkit. A grip can be found in W. Heins work (I attached an image of the drawing of the sangkit handle). The problem is that the handles aren't all carved the same, but the shape is still visible. Look at for instance to the image of a pakayun I have in my collection which I attached at the bottom of the row.. It's definately a pakayun, but carved very different as a general pakayun. I added also some photo's of sangkit handles to show the similarity which I meant to describe in my earlier post. The upper one is Charles's, the second one, and the third one was from Ben (Dajak on the forum). Kind Regards, Maurice Attached Images Last edited by Maurice; 11th March 2012 at 09:35 PM.

8th March 2012, 06:46 PM	#2
Maurice Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,342	Nice one Charles! Looks like a slightly different sangkit handle from the Muruts (N-Borneo), but it definately has all features of a sangkit handle (so no doubts about that). The blade is a Sarawak jimpul like blade..... But you stated that allready in your post... How is the blade connected in the handle? Congratulations with this interesting piece. Rg, Maurice

8th March 2012, 08:48 PM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Hi Maurice, and thanks for your input. The blade is attached to the hilt with a blackish pitch.

8th March 2012, 09:23 PM	#4
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Hi, this blade is not a version from the Bidayuh or Land-Dayak (S.W Sarawak) which usually have an angle in the blade (at short distance of the grip) and the grip the same form handle but not perforated?!?? I could be wrong here, but thought to bring it up in case I'm wright Nice quality and unusual piece! Congrats

10th March 2012, 08:28 PM	#6
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Yes very sharp of you to state that the Iban (jimpul) is different than Bidayuh or Land-Dayak! Though jimpuls were also used by Iban from the Saribas and Skrangriver which are near Bidayuh area.

10th March 2012, 08:47 PM	#8
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Lovely sword! http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9177 Is there a relation between those 2 blades? They look very similar! I always thought the users of these weapons are christian headhunters (dayak?) so what does the Islamic script may suggest? Sorry for my obvious ignorance on the topic I hope it does not cause any delay!

10th March 2012, 11:15 PM	#11
G. McCormack Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 131	Very graceful Charles, cheers on a lovely blade.

10th March 2012, 11:43 PM	#12
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hey Charles Found this link to a working type Borneo parang with a similar blade style. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=Borneo

11th March 2012, 09:09 PM	#16
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	For good comparisson I have posted Charles' swordhandle n the Bidayuh parang latok handles next to eachother in the same position; am I the only one who sees the same build/character of the handles here?? Another detail - as I have been to Northern Sarawak myself I have seen that near the (beginning of) the Baramriver the different shaped parang 'nyabur' is/was mostly used (and not the 'jimpul'), which ends in a point. Besides; it is always a very good sign to see a very thick blade (near grip) as yours' Charles; I would estimate it therefore before 1900, perhaps as early as 1850. Dayak-collectors . . . .?? Attached Images

11th March 2012, 09:16 PM	#17
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	Wow great results!; isnt this what these forums are about! Kind regards, Wouter

11th March 2012, 10:10 PM	#18
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Maurice, a very good suggestion with the old kind of floral Murut handle that you enclosed. It's actually hanging on my wall but I didn't think of it based on its more pakayun like brass grip. Michael

12th March 2012, 09:54 AM	#21
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Yes, it seems that the famous "fake or break" con man Wouter K has found this forum. Buyers beware! Michael PS A pity the warning thread was removed. But actually he is the only one I can think of after having done over 300 eBay transactions + 100's of other deals worldwide.

12th March 2012, 12:40 PM	#22
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	It seems Maurice is angry at me! Reason? I really dont know you and not what you refer to?! (Am not sure if I'm interested to even hear)(sewing/ears?!?) Thread focus; Interesting to see the second type of Murut sword apart from the 'pakayun'(is it called) with the 2pronged handle. Though I personnally still see more resemblance with the Bidayuh parang buko. >>Hope we all can stay objective here . . . . .Finding out Charles' sword origins is something far off 'personal' for me and would be glad to be proven wrong! Greetings,

12th March 2012, 03:22 PM	#23
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Maurice / VVV These types of personal attacks on the open forum will not be tolerated! So keep it civil. Last edited by Lew; 12th March 2012 at 04:29 PM.

12th March 2012, 10:45 PM	#24
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,224	News travels fast in this small collectors world... i am a bit astonished too Lookslike this thread is meeting its end.

13th March 2012, 12:39 PM	#25
Indianajones Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 180	If am allowed to reply VERY shortly; 1. have not had a negative feedback on ebay in two years! 2. besides a few fakes (on ebay)I do also sell very good n rare authentic items! Also to satisfied forumites! Thread; have checked the RMV museumcollection but havent found anything similar. Tropenmuseumcollection online was too slow for my lack of patience. It does seem that Murut handle ferrules and Bidayuh ferrules are often quite alike. >> unless I find a very similar sword I will restrain from replying on this thread for obvious reasons.

13th March 2012, 05:56 PM	#27
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,120	Not Here Boys! Gentlemen! If the insinuations and accusations continue to fly on this thread we WILL close it down....which would be unfortunate and certainly unfair to Charles as he seeks info about this very interesting sword. If anyone has a legitimate complaint against any other member here the proper channel would be to bring that complain, with substantial evidence, privately to the attention of the moderation staff. The airing of dirty laundry will not be tolerated in the open forums. Thank you.